Suicide by Police?

[Túrin Turambar]

There’s been some spirited debate in the Australian blogosphere on the following incident.

Tyler Cassidy was 15-year-old boy from Melbourne, who was studying hospitality and working part-time as a kitchenhand. Of late he had become involved with an anti-immigration nationalist group calling themselves the Southern Cross Soldiers, and had posted messages on his MySpace page praising the Cronulla riots. On the night of Thursday, December 10, he posted a message to ‘tell the S.C.S. I died fighting’, stole two 28-centimetre (10-inch) kitchen knives, and then confronted a group of three armed police at Northcote Park. They told him to lay down the knives, and then tried twice to subdue him with capsicum spray. He continued to advance, screaming ‘kill me or I’ll kill you’ at which point they drew their handguns and fatally shot him several times in the chest. It is worth noting that Victorian Police use lethal force about twice as frequently as other Australian police services, something that they have come under frequent criticism for.

Full account here.

Is this a genuine case of suicide by police? Was the use of lethal force justified?

[Impenitent]

We were debating this very issue tonight over the dinner table with friends.

We concluded that there is no justification for claiming the boy was suicidal on the anecdotal evidence. He had no known history of depression or other emotional disturbance or mental illness...which doesn't mean that he did not suffer from any of these possibilities, merely that there is no known record. I think that the claim of 'suicide by cop' is sensationalist. Not that there is need to up the ante - it is such a tragedy! such a tragedy that a young life is over so unnecessarily.

And we also felt that lethal force was NOT justified. He could have been immobilised in other ways. The capsicum spray did not work (and that is one reason that depression or mental illness is suspected, and 'death by cop' claimed, because apparently capsicum spray has erratic results in those suffering from mental illness) but there is no reason that he could not have been shot elsewhere to be immobilised - in the legs or other part of his anatomy so he could not have lunged at the police. Six bullets in the torso sounds homicidal to me.

And yes, tasers should be legalised for use in situations such as these - better than such a tragic death.

[Crucifer]

Certainly, lethal force shouldn't, and needn't have been used, for reasons listed by Impy above.
As for suicide by cop, I don't know what to think... I mean, it can be called that, I suppose? He went out with the express intention of dying at the end of a cop's gun...

Hmmm...

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I don't believe that lethal force was justified here. Two kitchen knifes in the hands of a 15 year old? If the police were not able to to incapacitate him without shooting him several times in the chest, they were woefully undertrained. Or so it seems to me.

I'll be interested to see if Folca has an opinion about this. (Also Lali's husband Freddie, if she can convince him to register here.)

[axordil]

This isn't a western. Cops don't shoot things out of people's hands or shoot knees or whatever.

From discussions with friends of mine that are or have been police officers, shooting to wound is as a rule not done, not taught, not contemplated. Center of mass is your target, period. This is for practical reasons: limbs are hard to hit, and even if you hit there, you may or may not disable someone who is apparently ready to injure or kill. Heck, shooting someone in the chest doesn't always do it. Once you've starting shooting, you've committed yourself to killing the target, whether or not they actually die from injuries. You don't pull the gun if you're not willing to use it, and you don't use it if you're not willing to kill with it. If you don't like it, find a different line of work.

Disarming someone who has a knife in close combat is dangerous but doable. Disarming someone with a knife who knows how to use it is both more dangerous and more difficult. The difference between the two is not always apparent.

This is one of the situations tasers, for all their faults, were developed for. The chance that this would have ended up with a fatality would be much lower--not zero, but much lower.

[yovargas]

That was my thought - someone trying to murder you by running at you with two large knifes is someone you put down ASAP any way you can. While it'd be admirable to find some non-lethal way to do that, I can't imagine that's always realistic or reasonable - especially, I'd think, against the particularly dangerous person who doesn't care if they die.

[solicitr]

Ax has it right. "Shooting to wound" is Hollywood fantasy. If a cop shoots, he shoots COM- mid-torso. (Aiming for extremities usually means missing). The issue, legally, is whether the situation left the cops no option but gunfire: but there is no intermediate threshhold where "wounding is OK but killing isn't."

Query: How close was the boy to the officers when he was shot? Was he close enough that there was an imminent threat of him stabbing one?


(BTW, this sounds to me not like a classic 'suicide' in the mental-health sense, but a 'martyrdom mission' in the terrorist/fanatic sense. Few terrorists are clinically 'depressed'.)

[sauronsfinger]

Why is it necessary to use the word TERRORIST in an effort to justify a police action?

[solicitr]

WTH?

I'm just searching for a familiar analogy for what may have been this kid's mindset- someone determined to die for a cause. Use 'kamikaze' if you like.

[sauronsfinger]

The word TERRORIST is very usable when it is properly applied. When it is not properly applied and not properly used it is a cheap shortcut to gaining instant support for police or governmental actions that has the effect of distorting the actual story and its participants.

I only make a plea for accuracy.

[Túrin Turambar]

Query: How close was the boy to the officers when he was shot? Was he close enough that there was an imminent threat of him stabbing one?

One of the claims made by the police is that he had cornered them against a concrete wall. And three officers who fired claimed that they were shooting to protect the fourth, whom they felt was in immediate danger.

[solicitr]

At least part of the police version would be testable through forensics, then.

Their case is rather strengthened by the fact that they first tried coercive but non-lethal force (pepper spray) and it didn't work.

[Frelga]

As Ax and Soli both said, in the States, once a police officer has pulled the gun, he is prepared to shoot to kill. That's how they are trained. Shooting to wound is difficult and unreliable. Anyone who comes at an officer with what credibly looks like a deadly weapon is committing suicide, intentionally or not.

It is unfortunate that the young man died, but honestly, I don't think his age should have played a role in the actions of the officers. Around here, a lot of violent of crime is committed by teenagers. Beatings, assaults, robberies. My friend was shot and killed by a fifteen-year old who was stealing his car.

Is there indication that he was NOT a danger to the officers?

[axordil]

I must admit it sounded like the kid wanted to go out in a blaze of "glory." That may not be so much insanity as susceptibility to the fringe group's blandishments: that age group is prone to overreaction, because most 15-year olds don't have enough context to understand their feelings in. It really may have felt like the end of the world to him, for whatever reason.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Query: How close was the boy to the officers when he was shot? Was he close enough that there was an imminent threat of him stabbing one?

That's the big unanswered question. Unless he was within a few feet of the "cornered" officer, there was no excuse to shoot to kill.

I find it difficult to believe that police officers are trained to use deadly force so blithely.

[axordil]

It's not a matter of being blithe about killing. It's a matter of not hesitating when the circumstances call for it. In this case, the kid went after the police: in those circumstances, you don't LET him get within a few feet, where he can actually stab them. Bulletproof vests are often not much good against a knife.

Again, this is the kind of situation a taser is really designed for. It's still a dangerous weapon, and using it on someone who isn't armed is still a dubious practice, but if someone is armed with a non-ranged weapon, it's better than just blowing them away.

[Frelga]

V, they don't do it "blithely." But someone coming at you with two kitchen knives... well, how close would YOU wait for them to get to you?

They were close enough to use pepper spray, which works for up 20 feet, according to a quick Google, and he kept coming.

[River]

One of the uses for a ten-inch kitchen knife is cutting meat. Raw meat. AKA flesh. Most of us have at least one of these in the kitchen. Some of us even keep them sharp. But though they are common, they are not benign.

I'm not inclined to comment further without more details, but a bullet-proof vest is no good against a knife, the gap between you and a guy with a knife can be closed very fast, and it's harder than you might think to defend yourself against a knife. I've had some training in defending myself against both a knife and a sword and I'd rather face a sword. It sounds like the kid wanted to make a martyr of himself, it sounds like the cops were rather freaked out. A taser probably would have been a better idea in this case.

[Impenitent]

Tasers are not legal in Victoria; there is a debate current on legalising them.

...shooting to wound is as a rule not done, not taught, not contemplated. Center of mass is your target, period.

I know this; and I question it. I openly confess I don't know enough about any of this to speak with any degree of certainty, but as an average citizen, I'd like to know why there is no alternative to shooting with lethal intent, especially when the police officers are up close. Perhaps it's naivety on my part.

There were four police officers, at close range, and one 15 year old kid with two knives. If he had one of those officers cornered, then then other three officers had him cornered.

I don't know. It's simply that I feel there has to be an alternative.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

You speak for me, Impy.