The new disadvantaged: white male students

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vison
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Post by vison »

These discussions, here and elsewhere, about the way boys behave in school are always interesting to me. I have two grownup boys long out of school, and two little boys in grades 3 and 6 respectively.

I can't see much difference between the schools my sons attended and the school my grandsons attend now. The little kids, in kindergarten and grades one and two, are given plenty of moving-around time. No child I know is expected to sit for hours at that age or even in the bigger grades! My grandsons are doing well in school. Girls are not "favoured" in their school, nor are boys pushed aside and ignored. The teachers seem to make a real effort to deal with the kids as individuals. But, of course, there are fewer than 100 students in the whole school, grades K to 7, so it's maybe easier.

I went to elementary school in an era when we WERE expected to sit for hours every day. And we did it. That's the way it was. Yes, I daresay the boys found it hard to do. But that was the expectation. Little girls coloured nicely inside the lines, enjoyed reading, and could sit still longer than the boys. But still, it was hard! I remember the blessed sense of freedom when we could RUN all the way home.

But. No one had a TV. No one had video games. I think we all had longer attention spans, to be honest. There was no effort made to "entertain" us or cater to our "needs". Children were largely expected to be seen and not heard.

It wasn't such a bad way, really. I know that's unfashionable to say, but you know what? It wasn't worse than it is now. It suited some children and not others, exactly as the present system does.

From my own experience raising boys, I know that boys are different from girls. But then, girls are different from boys. :) Yet, throughout my entire school career, boys were expected to "outperform" girls and they did. Over and over again, particularly in math and science. In grades 3 through 6 or 7 we had "ranks" in our classroom. At the end of every week the teacher announced who ranked first and so on down the line. It was nearly always boys who made up the top 5. In high school it was simply obvious that boys would be the top math and science students, and generally English as well, since girls were often funnelled into the less demanding English classes. (Business English, typing, etc.)

Now, of course there were exceptions, and yours truly was one of them. I was a bright kid and learned easily. But I, and a few of my girlfriends, WERE the exceptions, and were regarded as peculiar. Our experience, in our school, was hardly unique. Most teenagers are miserable anyway, but added to the general angst and weepiness of all those hormones you had added the ghastly truth that you BEAT some boy on a math test! The horror! No dates for you, my girl. So the dateless brainy girls got together at pjama parties and read Lady Chatterly out loud and sighed and pondered what "it" must be like, what the girlier girls were learning. . . . Or, sadly, many girls simply stopped doing well at school. There was certainly no universal expectation that you were going to university. Why, girls went there only to get their Mrs. degrees.

What has happened? What has happened is that girls have come into their own. Girls could always do well at math and science, but they weren't expected to and weren't encouraged. Maybe the real truth is that girls are brighter than boys? =:) I mean, for how many centuries has the opposite been accepted as right and natural?

I'm rather fed up with the whining and moaning. Boys aren't doing worse, girls are doing better, that's the way I see it. And when women are all the professors in colleges and universities and are chairmen of all the major corporations and are all the judges and governors and prime ministers, why, then, there might be something to bitch about. Maybe.
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Post by yovargas »

Boys aren't doing worse, girls are doing better, that's the way I see it.
That's not what I've understood. I've been hearing "boys doing worse, girls doing better" for a while. If true: why?????
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Post by vison »

yovargas wrote:
Boys aren't doing worse, girls are doing better, that's the way I see it.
That's not what I've understood. I've been hearing "boys doing worse, girls doing better" for a while. If true: why?????
I think the whole thing is blown way out of proportion, yovargas.
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Post by yovargas »

vison wrote:
yovargas wrote:
Boys aren't doing worse, girls are doing better, that's the way I see it.
That's not what I've understood. I've been hearing "boys doing worse, girls doing better" for a while. If true: why?????
I think the whole thing is blown way out of proportion, yovargas.
At Milton High School, girls outnumber boys by almost 2 to 1 on the honor roll.
Of the 22 students in her honors Spanish class, only one is a boy, said Little, a senior.
If this is the norm now, I disagree.
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vison
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Post by vison »

yovargas wrote:
vison wrote:
yovargas wrote: That's not what I've understood. I've been hearing "boys doing worse, girls doing better" for a while. If true: why?????
I think the whole thing is blown way out of proportion, yovargas.
At Milton High School, girls outnumber boys by almost 2 to 1 on the honor roll.
Of the 22 students in her honors Spanish class, only one is a boy, said Little, a senior.

If this is the norm now, I disagree.

But is it "the norm"? Is this the case in every school in the US? Or even most? You know what? I doubt it.

I can't really get too excited about it, yovargas, and I have two boys in school. They will do well or badly depending on many factors, the most important factor being whether they get support and encouragement at home.

Past generations of boys were expected to sit still and listen for bloody centuries! So why is it this big problem now? Boys always "did better" than girls then! This is ridiculous. The entire education systems of many nations were and are geared completely toward boys. So now girls have an actual chance of being given some equal treatment? And everyone freaks out because suddenly boys aren't at the top ALL THE TIME? Jeez.

Neither Oz nor Tay has yet had a man teacher. Women are the overwhelming majority of elementary school teachers and always have been. So it's absurd to say that's why boys are now doing badly.

Let's give it, say, 1,000 years. Then we'll see, okay? Maybe women ARE smarter than men? Despite what everyone was taught in the past? If so, why is this such a BAD thing?
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Post by sauronsfinger »

vision

good luck with your boys and their future... it sounds like they are well on their way to success.


I do not know if girls are smarter than boys .... or even if they are smarter at certain subjects .... but i do know that girls are much more mature than boys the same age ... and most of them know it. This gives girls an advantage in the classroom situation. I do think that for the longest time girls were not tended to in schools and boys were given the bulk of the attention because thats just how it was expected to be. Girls are now treated equally and they are thriving with the new equality. That is a good thing.

The culture that produces negativity in boys needs to be examined. The culture that leads to over 50% of big city kids not graduating needs to be examined. The culture that says a street kid is somehow more authentic and more manly than a bookish kid needs to be examined. Of course, we will do more than give lip service to these things.

We prefer to think of it as the individual childs problem or , at best, a school problem, rather than something systemic and cultural... which it most assuredely is.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
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Post by Padme »

I think Vison is right.

I think for thousands of years boys and men recieved educated, while woman were not allowed schooling, and if women were allowed education it was limited. Look at Cleopatra, well educated, very head strong woman, and yet she was considered a threat to Rome to the point of being killed.

There are still countries that girls and women can't gain an education at all.

And now men and boys are complaining the pond got bigger in western education and can't compete.

Case in point my cousin graduated 2nd in his class, he went to a small school which catered to boys in althetics. What happend....he went off to college and flunked out. Why couldn't he handle it, lack of compitetion. He went from being the big fish in a small pond to a small fish in a much bigger pond.
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Post by Jnyusa »

Yov, the stats do show that boys are falling behind girls in academic achievement and have been for some time.

There's a big debate being led by some authors at the American Enterprise Institute who claim that feminism is to blame. They point primarily to the preponderance of female teachers in grades K-12 ... but of course that has always been the case because teaching has traditionally been a low-paying job and the slippage in male academic performance is fairly recent.

There is another group of educators who attribute it to the ever-greater emphasis placed on sports, coupled with the number of entertainment distractions and lack of discipline at home. I am more likely to blame these culprits as well,

I think one thing that has happened is that old prejudices like "girls can't do math" are disappearing, and teachers no longer view girls as "not college material" because they'll end up being housewives, so girls are being taken more seriously in the classroom than they were during my generation (and for sure during my Mom's generation) and this makes for more competition in the academic realm.

AEI published a study that of college applicants, those who pass the college's criteria are 75% female and 25% male; but colleges still hold to the 50-50 gender split, meaning that there is heavy affirmative action on behalf of boys in college acceptances.

It is a complicated subject, imo ... what has really happened to our educational system and the performance of our students. You probably know that in the National Geographic world wide test of geography knowledge the country that finished last was Mexico and the country that finished second last was the USA. A bachelor's degree in the US is the equivalent of a High School degree in Europe, and that has been the case as long as I've been around.

US culture has a strong anti-intellectual streak which I believe to be the root of our problems in the area of education.

Regarding the rigidity of school structure, there was another recent study done that showed that High School students should start and finish their school day at a later hour because of the changing sleep patterns associated with puberty; and that it should be younger kids who begin early in the morning because that's when their energy levels are highest. But school throughout the country bring the HS students in first, then MS then ES because they don't want the little kids getting on school buses in the dark during Winter. From an academic perspective, though, it means that the HS kids are sleeping through morning classes and the little kids are all petered out after lunch.

Trying to make any massive institution responsive to individual differences is very difficult, and in a culture that does not honor discipline it is especially difficult.

jn
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Post by JewelSong »

Wanna improve academics?

Get rid of the TV and video games. The reason students as a whole are not doing as well is because they don't (and maybe can't) read. If you can read, write and reason, you can do almost anything else.

When I was divorced, I lived in an area with very poor TV reception and I couldn't afford cable. So for more than 2 years, we basically had no TV to speak of. Every two weeks, we made a trip to the library and checked out books. We had plenty of board games and we'd rent an occasional video.

When I made the move to the city, the new school system tested my kids for reading levels...and they scored 4 - 6 grade levels ABOVE their peers. Now, maybe I just have smart kids who like to read. But I think the lack of the TV made it easier for them to get into the habit of reading. I have been in houses of supposedly intelligent and educated people and there is not a book in sight. People tell me proudly, "Oh, I don't read." What IS that?

More books. Less passive TV watching and mindless GameBoy playing.

And no, I have no idea how you'd go about making this happen. I'm just sayin'. ;)
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Post by yovargas »

Some of the smartest people I ever met played video games heavily growing up - myself included. There's no connection between the two.
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Post by sauronsfinger »

Some of the smartest people I ever met played video games heavily growing up - myself included. There's no connection between the two.
Just throwing out a wild guess here .....

but ....

I do not think simulating murder, rape and drug dealing on Grand Theft Auto adds IQ points or educational skills to anyone. Could it be that your friends were smart BEFORE the games took hold over them or in SPITE of it?

Were it up to me I would flush them all. But thats just me.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
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Post by truehobbit »

tp, the first post was hilarious! :rofl:

I think Jewel is right. But I think there has also been a change in education and what people expect from children. Sadly, IMO, what people expect from children has lessened enormously!

Of course a seven-year-old shouldn't be made to sit still for hours and hours - but I think it does them no harm if they are requested to sit still for a while! And that is what doesn't seem to happen anymore in modern education principles. Don't make kids do anything seems to be the dogma.
A friend of mine is an elementary school teacher, and the things she tells me about her work (in a good way - she doesn't mean to criticise and thinks it's right and normal for kids to run riot in the classroom!) make my hair stand on end!

Like some others here have said about their own education, I can only say I have the same story: it just was no question that you behave yourself when required, even at the age of six or seven! I don't even remember that this was out of pressure or for fear of punishment or whatever - it was just normal. If people asked you to be quiet now, you were. These days, from what I observe in church or other public places like restaurants, children are not asked to do anything anymore at all - or if so, very often they don't respond.
I think this is sad, because I remember that I liked it that grown-uppish things were expected from me, even if they were boring. I think it's sad when nowadays people don't seem to expect better from their kids than they would from a little ape.

As to academic achievement: in my school-days girls always did better in the first five or six years, with boys catching up after that, making it about 50/50 in academic achievement at the end of school (A-levels, senior high, or whatever it's called in the US).
Personally, I think that's because girls learn better, their minds are more active somehow - after all, women do use both halves of the brain more than men ;) - they are alert and curious and able to interact, and all that helps to quickly pick up new information.
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Post by JewelSong »

yovargas wrote:Some of the smartest people I ever met played video games heavily growing up - myself included. There's no connection between the two.
It has nothing to do with being "smart." It has to do with the way you acquire knowledge.

If you play video games, but you also read, dialogue, write and reason, well, then the games will likely not have any effect on your academic progress or your ability to succeed in the "real" world. There IS a connection if playing the games takes the place of other things.

But what I see, after 30+ years in the field, is passivity taking the place of intellectual curiousity. Everything seems to be spoon fed...the idea of investigating something for yourself, because it is interesting and the idea that such an investigation might take time and work and blood, sweat and tears is an anathema to many high school students.

And TH is right...there is a tendency not to "make" kids do anything, for fear of bruising their fragile egos and self esteem. The idea that failing at something can be a learning experience and build a bit of character has been thrown out the window. Kids must never fail - at anything, ever. Even if they are total screw-ups, never do their homework, have no self-discipline, can't read or write anywhere near grade level - they (and their parents!) think you, as the teacher, should somehow "fix it" for them.

I am far from a hard-ass. But we are raising a generation of spoiled brats who think they are entitled to a free ride. The sense of entitlement - whether or not you have earned it - runs rampant. And I have seen it in both urban and suburban districts.

ETA: SF, when I teach general music, I start each year by playing a montage of musical selections to show the students how much they already know about genres and styles of music. A couple of years ago, the piece I chose for "opera" was "O Mio Babbino Caro" by Puccini. The entire 7th grade class knew it. Do you know why? It's used as background music on "Grand Theft Auto 3!" Isn't that special?
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Post by yovargas »

I do not think simulating murder, rape and drug dealing on Grand Theft Auto adds IQ points or educational skills to anyone. Could it be that your friends were smart BEFORE the games took hold over them or in SPITE of it?

Were it up to me I would flush them all. But thats just me.
I hate GTA too but...

...would you also "flush" all films and books that depict murder, rape, and drug dealing? I'm guessing fans of these films/books were smart BEFORE or in SPITE of them too so who needs 'em, right? I say let's start by flushing the Godfather films...
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vison
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Post by vison »

yovargas, you are missing the point. Or being deliberately obtuse.

Before there were video games, were kids spending HOURS and HOURS every day watching movies? Of course they weren't. There is NO pre-video-game equivalent.

TV is even worse, in my view. It's spoon fed crap and I am eternally, eternally grateful that I grew up without it. It seems that every generation of kids watches MORE TV than the previous one, and has more incredible crap to choose from. There are a few 'educational' programs on, very true. Do kids watch them? As if. And by and large when I watch them I think, "This is grade 3 stuff." Talk about the LCD. On American TV the only exception I've seen is Nova, which manages to be informative and entertaining without seeming to have been made for elementary school or even kindergarten.

I am not and never was a fan of Sesame Street. It might teach the odd kid his ABCs but it also reinforces the demand for constant stimulation. And that's what TV satisfies: a demand created in the kid's brain for constant stimulation. God forbid that even one second lacks excitement. Colour! Noise! Excitement! Then more colour! More noise!! More excitement!! It is not the content of TV that is so damaging: in this case, the medium IS most assuredly the message, and the message is "Constant stimulation".

For whatever reason, reading is the best thing kids can do if they want to do well in school. I don't really know why, although I have plenty of unsubstantiated notions: it increases your vocabularly, makes the circuits in your brain work a certain way, etc. Reading requires some effort from the imagination, and is not a passively entertaining system.

You were a smart guy before you started playing video games. Playing them might have sharpened up your button-pushing skills, but I am quite sure it did nothing else. After all, how many Evil Reptile Space Aliens do you encounter in your everyday life? How many times are you called on to hop in a TransAm and chase a car thief at 100 MPH on a busy street?

Children learned from their elders for hundreds of generations before there was even writing. They learned by sitting quietly and listening to the elders, by following quietly with the hunters, watching the women gather roots and berries. I'm serious. The process of "growing up" was always the process of learning decorum and the tribe's way of survival, of showing that you could be still when required, and watchful and careful. Noise and music and dancing and other excitements were carefully controlled, kept for festivals and special occasions.

We aren't going to go back to those days. But the best thing anyone can do is severely limit the amount of time children spend sitting on their butts playing video games or watching TV.

But then, someone might actually have to think about what they can do instead. :(

As for kids and school, well, my grandsons are expected to learn a whole whack of stuff in elementary school that I didn't see until high school. I spent many hours in the little grades practicing handwriting curves and memorizing the multiplication tables. I have lovely handwriting and have never forgot what 7 times 9 is.

My 11 year-old is not made to use cursive writing and he is allowed to look in a table at the back of his planner when he needs to know what 8 times 4 is! But he is doing other work much beyond anything I had to do at 11.
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Post by yovargas »

Before there were video games, were kids spending HOURS and HOURS every day watching movies? Of course they weren't. There is NO pre-video-game equivalent.
You defeat your own argument in your next sentence:
TV is even worse, in my view.
At least video games are not a passive entertainment. Many (maybe even most) games require a lot of thought as well as quick reflexes. Doing anything 8 hours a day is gonna be bad for you eventually, but there is nothing inherently harmful about most games, particularly the many that require you to engange your mind.

TV on the other hand...

(and TV was around a good twenty years before video games so...)
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Post by sauronsfinger »

jewelsong
cute story about the music... I wonder how Mr. Puccini would feel about it knowing what his masterpiece has been used for today? And of course, the kids did not know what it was did they? Only the use of GTA?

Vision
I loved your story about learning your multiplication tables and how it improved your handwriting... :)

one great benefit from attending school when we did was the rote memorization of numerical computations .... once you learn, you never do forget .....

yovargas....

what we have today is the greatest exercised generation in the history of the world .....

if we are only talking about thumbs ...

the rest of the body leaves much to be desired with obesity on the rise and exercise a dirty word to many under thirty...

regarding TV and movies..... I can show an eight year old parts of TROY and still glean some lesson from it ..... a violent slash and murder video game is not so rich in content

it is not the sole isolated act of violence... its the weight of the entire industry and its effects on those who play it which bothers me...

I openly admit that I am too old to embrace video games .... when my kids were little I tried and hated every minute of it since it made no logical sense "just keep hitting the buttons dad" ... right ....
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
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Post by JewelSong »

yovargas wrote:Doing anything 8 hours a day is gonna be bad for you eventually,


8 hours a day...
Practicing piano
Building a tool shed
Writing a novel
Composing an opera
Staging a play
Rehearsing a concerto
Reading War and Peace
Knitting a sweater
Baking bread from scratch
Wiring a house
Carving a set of wooden animals
Painting a picture
Hiking a woodland trail
...and etc.

Doing any of these things for 8 hours is not going to be "bad for you eventually." In fact, I would postulate that it would be beneficial.
At least video games are not a passive entertainment. Many (maybe even most) games require a lot of thought as well as quick reflexes....but there is nothing inherently harmful about most games, particularly the many that require you to engange your mind.
That's the trouble, I think. I don't think most video games really do require you to "engage your mind." I think that is a false assumption. They are packaged, pre-set codes that give the illusion of activity and sophistication. But in truth, no new information or skills are learned from the games that are most popular today. It's a passive way to spend time that requires almost nothing of the player.

In many ways, I think the video games are of more concern, because they fool you into thinking that you are, in fact, doing something worthwhile and even "educational." Whereas with TV it is obvious that you are not.

And yes, 30 or 40 years ago, there was TV (of course) but people watched it in a much different way. It was a family event - you waited for your show to come on, you gathered around the TV and watched together - maybe discussing the show during the commercials. And since there were so few stations, the show could be a topic of conversation the next day. It was actually a vehicle for more conversation and discourse. No more.
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Post by yovargas »

a violent slash and murder video game is not so rich in content
Neither is a violent slash and murder movie. Did you know that LM is part of a modification to the historical war game Rome: Total Invasionin order to make it more accurately reflect the history of the period? There are actually numerous historical strategy games which are very, very popular. Age of Empires is heavily based on history stories, for example.
when my kids were little I tried and hated every minute of it since it made no logical sense "just keep hitting the buttons dad"
I've constantly seen people completely unfamilar with video games stumped by the simplest of problems when they try them. I very sincerely believe that there is a basic type of problem-solving skill that games help develop and I very sincerely believe that those learned problem-solving skills are a major part of why I was good enough to get my current job.


More on topic:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10965522/site/newsweek/
One of the most reliable predictors of whether a boy will succeed or fail in high school rests on a single question: does he have a man in his life to look up to? Too often, the answer is no. High rates of divorce and single motherhood have created a generation of fatherless boys. In every kind of neighborhood, rich or poor, an increasing number of boys—now a startling 40 percent—are being raised without their biological dads.
40%!!!

That sounds like the best theory to explain this problem.
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I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
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Post by yovargas »

8 hours a day...
Practicing piano
Building a tool shed
Writing a novel
Composing an opera
Staging a play
Rehearsing a concerto
Reading War and Peace
Knitting a sweater
Baking bread from scratch
Wiring a house
Carving a set of wooden animals
Painting a picture
Hiking a woodland trail
...and etc.

Doing any of these things for 8 hours is not going to be "bad for you eventually." In fact, I would postulate that it would be beneficial.

Doing any of that stuff 8 hours a day every day? Unless it's your current or future job, yeah, I don't think that would be all that beneficial Maybe writing and learning an instrument...
That's the trouble, I think. I don't think most video games really do require you to "engage your mind."
Very untrue. Most games are a series of problems that you are asked to solve. They give you tools, they give you an obstacle, then ask you "Hey, solve this one!". It really is a bunch of problem-solving skills put to the test in a bazillion different ways.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists


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