When is PC too PC?

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Re: When is PC too PC?

Post by Alatar »

Actually, I posted a page about "Patty's Day" that included a comment about the drink. I've never found it personally offensive but I do smile at the double standard. In the same way, I find it absurd to pretend the past was different in a game, but present it as art in a movie like 12 Years a Slave.

There's a board game called A Distant Plain which simulates the current Afghan conflict:
This volume in Volko Ruhnke's COIN Series takes 1 to 4 players into the Afghan conflict of today’s headlines, this time in a unique collaboration between two top designers of boardgames on modern irregular warfare. A Distant Plain teams Volko Ruhnke, the award-winning designer of Labyrinth: The War on Terror, with Brian Train, a designer with 20 years' experience creating influential simulations such as Algeria, Somalia Interventions, Shining Path: The Struggle for Peru, and many others.

A Distant Plain features the same accessible game system as GMT's recent Andean Abyss and upcoming Cuba Libre but with new factions, capabilities, events, and objectives. For the first time in the Series, two counterinsurgent (COIN) factions must reconcile competing visions for Afghanistan in order to coordinate a campaign against a dangerous twin insurgency.

A Distant Plain adapts familiar Andean Abyss mechanics to the conditions of Afghanistan without adding rules complexity. A snap for GMT COIN Series players to learn, A Distant Plain will transport them to a different place and time. New features include:

Coalition-Government joint operations.
Volatile Pakistani posture toward the conflict.
Evolution of both COIN and insurgent tactics and technology.
Government graft and desertion.
Coalition casualties.
Returning Afghan refugees.
Pashtun ethnic terrain.
Multiple scenarios.
A deck of 72 fresh events.

... and more.

As with each COIN Series volume, players of A Distant Plain will face difficult strategic decisions with each card. The innovative game system smoothly integrates political, cultural, and economic affairs with military and other violent and non-violent operations and capabilities. Flow charts are at hand to run the three Afghan factions, so that any number of players—from solitaire to 4—can experience the internecine brawl that is today's Afghanistan.
There are American soldiers dying in this arena. Does that make it taboo subject matter for a boardgame? Should it??

ETA: For context, here is the plot of Battlefield 3, one of the best selling console games of all time:
Plot

On 15 March, Sgt. Blackburn's squad, Misfit 1-3, attempted to find and safely return a US squad investigating an improvised explosive device in Sulaymaniyah, Iraqi Kurdistan, whose last known position was in territory controlled by the PLR (People's Liberation & Resistance), an Iranian paramilitary insurgent group.[30][31][32] They find the missing squad, which had been ambushed by the PLR; but before they can escape the city, a massive earthquake wrecks the city. Blackburn, fellow squadmate Montes, and other survivors fight their way out of the ruins of the city.[33] On the same day, the PLR stage a coup d'état in Iran, and the US subsequently invades.[28][33] Lt. Hawkins takes part in a raid on enemy fighters over Iran and an air strike over Mehrabad Airport. In the aftermath of the air strikes, Misfit 1 was sent into Tehran to perform battle damage assessment and apprehend the leader of the PLR, Faruk Al-Bashir.[28] While investigating an underground bank vault in the target's suspected location, Blackburn and his team learn that the PLR have acquired Russian suitcase nukes, with two of the three devices missing.[34] Being overrun, Misfit requests backup from an M1 Abrams column "Anvil 3", including Sergeant Miller. Miller facilitates Misfit 1's helicopter extraction, but is captured when waiting for the arrival of the Quick Reaction Force. Miller is promptly executed by Solomon and Al-Bashir, with the event being filmed and posted on the Internet.[35]

Later, Misfit 1-3 manages to capture Al-Bashir, who becomes fatally wounded when they cause his escape vehicle to crash. Realizing that he had been betrayed and used, Al-Bashir reveals some of Solomon's plan—to detonate the nukes in Paris and New York City—before succumbing to his wounds.[36][37] Misfit 1 gets a lead on arms dealer Amir Kaffarov, who was working with Solomon and Al-Bashir.[38] They attempt to capture Kaffarov from his villa on the Caspian Sea coast, near the Azerbaijani border. However, they run into a Russian paratrooper battalion, also after Kaffarov, who engage them with airdropped BMP-2s, with Su-25s providing close air support.[39] In the ensuing chaos, Blackburn's squadmates, Campo and Matkovic, are killed in an enemy airstrike.[35][40] Meanwhile, a Spetsnaz team led by Dima assaults Kaffarov's villa. Kaffarov tries to bribe his way out, but Dima interrogates him nonetheless.[35][41] Blackburn arrives at the villa and finds Dima and an unconscious Kaffarov. Dima reveals Solomon's plot to Blackburn, and requests his cooperation to prevent "a war between [their] nations". Meanwhile, Misfit 1's commanding officer Cole arrives, and Blackburn is forced to shoot his superior before he can kill Dima.[42] Blackburn's shooting of his commanding officer results in his eight-hour interrogation by the C.I.A. at Hunters Point, Queens.

During Blackburn's captivity, Dima's Spetsnaz squad attempts to stop the attack in Paris. Dima is unsuccessful; Vladimir dies, while he and Kiril suffer the effects of the nuclear detonation. Meanwhile, the CIA agents do not believe Blackburn's story, since Solomon is a CIA informant, and there is no concrete proof of his involvement in the terrorist attacks. They instead believe that Russia is responsible for the attacks, and that Dima has tricked Blackburn.[43]

With no other options, Blackburn and surviving squad member Montes break out of captivity to stop the attack in New York. Evading police, Blackburn manages to break into a hijacked subway train, full of Solomon's men and explosive charges. He works his way to the front car, where he is ambushed by Solomon. When ambushed by Solomon, Blackburn gains the upper hand by obtaining and activating the detonator, causing the train to crash. Blackburn pursues Solomon through the sewers and up to street level. Montes, having obtained a police car, picks up Blackburn and engages Solomon and the PLR in a brief vehicular chase, which ends with both cars crashing in Times Square. As a bewildered crowd watches on, Solomon shoots Montes, but Blackburn manages to kill Solomon by bludgeoning him to death with a brick in the ensuing brawl and recovers the nuclear bomb.[44]

In the epilogue, the player learns that Dima had survived the Paris detonation, albeit suffering radiation poisoning from the blast. He writes about the efforts of both himself and Blackburn to stop Solomon's plan "to set fire to the world". As he finishes, he examines a pistol, and seems to point it towards his head. A knock comes from his door, the screen cuts to black, and the last sound is that of the pistol being loaded.[45]
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Re: When is PC too PC?

Post by Lalaith »

What yovi said. :agree:

Plus, it's not the killing we're talking about here; it's the use of slavery as a means of winning a game. (Again, I don't know the exact parameters of the game in question, so maybe that's not it precisely.) When it's a relatively fresh wound, as it is here in the US, particularly among the black community, and when it's a current, humanitarian crisis around the world, well, I do think it's in poor taste to trivialize it and make it a positive strategy in a game.

I also agree that this can take us to absurd places. I totally get that, too. We've become afraid to say or do anything, but I don't agree this is one of those cases where it's gone into absurd territory. I think it makes sense within my country's social context for us to be like, "Ehhhh, that does not feel right." I think the reason it might not register as such in other countries is that many people are unaware of the extent of slavery still existing around the globe. I know I wasn't until recently.

From Unicef:

July 2015
Human trafficking
is extremely
profitable, generating
an estimated
$150 billion in
yearly profits.


What is human trafficking?

Human trafficking has been likened to modern-day
slavery that subjects children, women, and men to force, fraud, or coercion for the
purpose of commercial sexual exploitation or forced labor. This horrific practice can
include prostitution, pornography, and sex tourism as well as labor for domestic
service, factory or construction work, and migrant farming.

Estimates put the number of children in slavery at 5.5 million.
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Re: When is PC too PC?

Post by Alatar »

Sorry, but I still don't see the difference between trivialising murder and trivialising slavery. If anything, surely trivialising murder is worse?
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Re: When is PC too PC?

Post by yovargas »

I think to some extent, it's specificity. Trivializing "murder" in some generic sense like Grand Theft Auto does, you can probably get away with. It doesn't bring up any specific events in most people's mind. But trivializing murder the way the Hatred game did, where it was specifically calling to mind real, recent mass shootings that have been too frequent here, that will, and did, strike many people as extremely distasteful.

Tone has a lot to do with that too. I think you can get away with tackling even very recent tragedies as long as you strike a tone of respecfulness towards those who've suffered.
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Re: When is PC too PC?

Post by Frelga »

And also I think there is a long history of playing war games, for better or for worse. There is a purpose to it, has been for millennia, and it has to do with preparing young men (and women, I guess, these days) for being soldiers.

Not to say that this is a purpose that the game designers have in mind, but it is the cultural pool they tap into.

And the world being as it is, I can't honestly say that it is entirely wrong. I dearly hope that my son won't ever be in combat, but I am not 100% certain that he won't have to.

I am 100% certain that he won't ever be a slave trader.
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Re: When is PC too PC?

Post by Alatar »

It must be a cultural thing. I am genuinely bemused by the reactions here. It's ok for me to put "my soldiers" into Normandy, knowing they'll be massacred, in order to slow the advance in another part of the map, but if I put "my workers" into a sugar cane field to gain the upper hand in my Colony, I've somehow crossed a line. Bizarre.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure I won't ever be a soldier or a slave trader, but I have no problem playing historical games that include those elements, because, well, they're games, and they're historical.

Incidentally, if I played a Babylon 5 game as the Centauri and captured Narns, is that ok, because its sci-fi slaver? What about a game set in ancient Egypt, like Ra? Slaves built those Pyramids. Or the new game I'm looking forward to, Star Wars Rebellion. I can get to play as the Empire in that and enslave an entire Galaxy! If I play War of the Ring and I'm Sauron or Saruman, what then? They had slaves too. Or is it only American RealLife(TM) slavery that counts?
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Re: When is PC too PC?

Post by Primula Baggins »

It makes a difference in a country where there are millions of people descended from those slaves who can argue justly that slavery and its aftermath still shadows their lives. That is real. Those other scenarios are fantasy, or history so remote that no living person has been injured by that slavery.
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Re: When is PC too PC?

Post by Alatar »

Really? World War 2? Afghanistan? Also, lest anyone thinks I'm being one-eyed here, if they had a boardgame similar to Twilight Struggle, but instead of dealing with the cold war it dealt with the Troubles in Northern Ireland I would have no issue with it. Because it was real. Because it happened.
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Re: When is PC too PC?

Post by Primula Baggins »

I was talking specifically about slavery—buying and selling human beings.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
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Re: When is PC too PC?

Post by Alatar »

But that's the essence of my question. Why is it ok to depict murder in games. but not slavery?
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Re: When is PC too PC?

Post by axordil »

Murder and war are, alas, universals. Every culture has to deal with them. Not every culture has had to deal with being enslaved, and there's an unfortunate tendency for those that have to remain oppressed, or at least disadvantaged, many years after the legal shackles come off.

A little sensitivity on their part around the issue is understandable.
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Re: When is PC too PC?

Post by yovargas »

I also wouldn't be particularly surprised if some current veterans of the Aghan or Iraq wars felt resentful of those settings were used for entertainment purposes.
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Re: When is PC too PC?

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I think I'll just drop the subject. I can't see the distinction. People died on the beaches of Normandy far more recently than slavery existed in the US, but for some reason, one is culturally sensitive and the other isn't. Perhaps its because of the jingoistic attitude to the military in the US? I really don't get it, and none of the explanations made so far hold any water for me, so its best I just let it go!
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Re: When is PC too PC?

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Slavery, in the U.S., is indelibly connected to racism, and racism is still one of this country's biggest problems, from police shootings to riots to cities virtually burning on live TV, it is something that holds a unique standing in American culture. The sort of logic you are applying, which may seem reasonable to you, just doesn't apply here, in this country, where this one issue caries such huge weight. I don't know what else to say about it.
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Re: When is PC too PC?

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

The only comparable analogy that I can think of is the Holocaust. Could anyone imagine a popular game in which you play Nazi concentration camp officers and compete to see who can kill the most Jews, Gypsies and Homosexuals the quickest?

I didn't think so.
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Re: When is PC too PC?

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What V-man and tinwë said.

I've been reading Ta-Nehisi Coates's Between the World and Me in small doses, both because it hurts too much to read all at once, and because I'm afraid I'll skim over the hardest parts if I do that. It's as bleak and honest an account of the racial situation in the U.S. as I've seen. The book helped me along to the conclusion that slavery never really ended here--it merely slid out of view. It infiltrated the American cultural DNA, weakening and corrupting it, like some twisted cultural HIV, even as we congratulated ourselves on ridding ourselves of it. If one were of a theological bent, one might compare slavery (and its near kin, the appropriation of the continent from its devastated native peoples, two different ways of combining theft with dehumanization) to Original Sin: how can we ever escape the substance we are formed from and in?
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Re: When is PC too PC?

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Voronwë the Faithful wrote:The only comparable analogy that I can think of is the Holocaust. Could anyone imagine a popular game in which you play Nazi concentration camp officers and compete to see who can kill the most Jews, Gypsies and Homosexuals the quickest?

I didn't think so.
I know this may seem like splitting hairs, but that's a very poor analogy. No game has you playing as slave owners to see how many slaves you can capture, how badly you can mistreat them and still get them to work hard for you. That would absolutely be an unacceptable game, in the same way as your Holocaust game would be. But there are no games like that. The games that feature slavery treat it the same as any other historical fact, as a "mechanic" if you will.

Having slaves in a games like Puerto Rico is no different (in my eyes) to having Nazis in Axis and Allies. We know there was a very dark origin and history behind the game setting and to glorify it would be wrong, but to ignore it would be worse.
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Re: When is PC too PC?

Post by Túrin Turambar »

I’ve thought about this for a while, I think it’s just that war games have been part of our society for as long as war has. Chess is a war simulation. Toy weapons have been found in ancient sites. Churchill played with toy soldiers as a child. That makes it acceptable in a way that games based on other forms of violence aren’t. It’s why it’s not controversial to command SS troops to kill Allied soldiers in a Second World War game while it is to play the GTA series. Otherwise, as Al points out, there’s an inconsistency.

I used to enjoy playing PC strategy games, but I find of late that even simulated violence and killing bothers me in a way it never did before. It might be the result of all my research into the First World War, or of the sad reality of the word we live in now where some have made violence no more significant than a game (see Brussels).
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Re: When is PC too PC?

Post by yovargas »

Alatar wrote:
Voronwë the Faithful wrote:That would absolutely be an unacceptable game, in the same way as your Holocaust game would be. But there are no games like that. The games that feature slavery treat it the same as any other historical fact, as a "mechanic" if you will.
But why would you see that as an unacceptable game considering that Nazi concentration camps are another historical fact?
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Re: When is PC too PC?

Post by Lalaith »

Túrin, I'm with you. I can't and don't play shoot 'em up video games and never have been able to get into them. I'm not above playing Risk or something like that, so there is some hypocrisy there, I suppose. (Although I think it's at least slightly different to play a game like Chess or Risk than it is to visually put yourself into the shoes of a first person shooter, I see the logic Al is espousing.)

There have been racist games here in the US. I saw an article about them just a short time ago, and they are shocking to me (as they probably would be to most people in the US). Link here, with the addendum that one of those games is a forgery and some of them are not racist but are just in poor taste, which speaks to our general discussion
Perhaps its because of the jingoistic attitude to the military in the US?
Yes, quite possibly. We are a country that has experienced a great deal of "success" in military ventures, so this could explain why we (general we, not me) don't mind playing military games. However, I think we're ashamed of our history of slavery and our past and current issues of racism.
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