Myers-Briggs, redux

[Túrin Turambar]

It's so superficial as to be generic and useless, yet people believe in it and base their judgements of people on it. Thats the real problem.

How is it superficial? It tells you the base drivers of someone's personality - what types of behaviour are natural to them, and what aren't. It's like being able to tell whether the apple is wormy or rotten or simply painted by looking at its skin.

[yovargas]

What I genuinely believe is that people use the MBTI to try to categorise people into "types" and then to use their knowledge of that "type" to decide how to deal with that person. This is as fundamentally flawed as assuming all red apples will taste the same, be the same size and have no worms in them.

Yes, there are many different types of apples. But no matter how varied apples get, apples aren't oranges (or cinder blocks ). Knowing that it's a red apple leaves out a lot of valuable info, but nonetheless, treating it as an apple instead of as an orange is the proper thing to do.

[Alatar]

It's so superficial as to be generic and useless, yet people believe in it and base their judgements of people on it. Thats the real problem.

How is it superficial? It tells you the base drivers of someone's personality - what types of behaviour are natural to them, and what aren't. It's like being able to tell whether the apple is wormy or rotten or simply painted by looking at its skin.

But how is that the case? As we have demonstrated two of you weren't able to agree on anything except one on the 4 options after "knowing" me for a year and that one was wrong according to my own self assesment. What you're really saying is that if I describe myself in detail to you you'll know how to deal with me? Does this not smack of pure quackery to anyone else?

All I can think of is the stage medium...

Medium: I have contacted someone on the other side. I'm getting a name.... it's Jack, no Jake, no John, maybe Jim, or is it Jane?

Women at Random: My daughters name was Jill!

Medium: That's it, I have her here...

Audience: How does he do it? Amazing!


P.S. Frelga, I'd be honoured

[yovargas]

I think you're treating this like if it were a horoscope. This isn't some parlor trick we use to tell people what they like and dislike. This is about how people think, about how people make decisions, about how people deal with problems, ect. Though we can see a lot of that through our board interactions, we can't really see most of it. I can't tell you how your mind works (though I can guess from our fairly superficial internet interactions). Ultimately, only you can tell us how your mind works.

[Alatar]

So what you're saying (forgive me if I put words in your mouth here) is that if I tell you I am an ENFP or whatever, that you then will know how best to treat me and respond to me, despite not knowing me any better than you did before I told you that? Am I understanding that correctly?

[yovargas]

But...I will know you better. For example, if someone were to tell me that the ENFP type fits them very well, from the type descriptions:

Because ENFPs live in the world of exciting possibilities, the details of everyday life are seen as trivial drudgery. They place no importance on detailed, maintenance-type tasks, and will frequently remain oblivous to these types of concerns. When they do have to perform these tasks, they do not enjoy themselves. This is a challenging area of life for most ENFPs, and can be frustrating for ENFP's family members.

That's something that I would not have known about you (and quite often you didn't know about yourself). Now, let's say that the ENFP you and I are working on something together on some big project and I notice that they exhibit these traits, ie. a feeling that the details are trivial drudgery. Without MBTI, I might just think that you're a lazy bastard who doesn't wanna do the boring stuff and are pawning it off on me to do. How would I know otherwise? With the MBTI knowledge of your type, I'll understand each of our strengths better and at the very least avoid thinking you're just being an asshole and at the very best, be able to work together on whatever we're doing in a way that best utilizes our strengths and avoids calling on each other's weaknesses. Or, say in a workplace envirnoment, I might call on a type less likely to find the details drudgery work (like an SJ).

All that good stuff could have happened without MBTI knowledge, but the most likely result would have been that we try to work together, get frustrated with each other, and eventually find each other too difficult to work with.

[Alatar]

Well, if it works for you...

I can't say it's complete hogwash because I haven't studied it, but it definitely veers into the "quackery" area for me. Effectively what seems to be suggested is that you can get a "snapshot" of my personality in those 4 letters and I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that. I'm nothing special, but I'm far more complex than the MBTI suggests. How I respond to a given circumstance is not only part of my makeup, but also depends on my surroundings, on my friends and acquaintances, on my mood on any given day. I stand by my initial judgement that the MBTI is simply a generic labelling system with no real practical value and the potential for great harm. Perhaps history will prove me wrong, but I doubt it.

[Jnyusa]

The little I know about classification schemes is:

a. managers like them because they're quick and dirty
b. organizational behaviorists don't like them because their out-of-sample predictive value is poor

There have been a number of schemes like this proposed - most are 2x2 matrices rather than 4x4, but I'm not convinced that the 4x4 actually gives better predictive value. The increased detail can also make predictions more likely to be wrong.

It's probably more useful as a self-help tool. I believe the categories are based on the old Jungian classifications, aren't they? That would be more of a psychoanalytical tool than a management tool. Unfortunately managers are always looking for ways to get a quick fix on their employees and a correspondingly automated managerial response.

Jn

[Túrin Turambar]

But how is that the case? As we have demonstrated two of you weren't able to agree on anything except one on the 4 options after "knowing" me for a year and that one was wrong according to my own self assesment.

But we haven’t known you for a year – we’ve discussed a couple of subjects in various threads. How much do you know about me, for example?

What you're really saying is that if I describe myself in detail to you you'll know how to deal with me?

Suppose I observe that Anthy is a sensitive person in her dealings with others, and then resolve to be careful not to offend or upset her when I deal with her myself. What’s wrong with that? But that is all the MBTI is – on a more complex level, with a more scientific approach.

It's probably more useful as a self-help tool. I believe the categories are based on the old Jungian classifications, aren't they?

Yep. The temperaments themselves go back to Plato. Different people use it for different things – some people in the TORC thread argued that it was completely useless as a self-help tool. I’ve used it a little as a self-help tool, but I use it more to improve my relations with other people.

[Jnyusa]

Lord M: I’ve used it a little as a self-help tool, but I use it more to improve my relations with other people.

Yes, I would include that in self-help, loosely defined ... as opposed to having to take the test as part of an employment process. I believe it is also used in that manner by some firms, and I have much less confidence in personality tests (of all ilk) for that purpose.

Jn

[Alatar]

I think we'll simply have to agree to disagree on this one, but I have enjoyed the discussion. It was very enlightening and I feel I've learned a little bit about both of you. I've also learned it first hand, through my own experience of you, rather than from a classification system, which makes me infinitely happier.

Alatar

[Túrin Turambar]

How does the MBTI mean that you don't learn about people from them first hand ?

[Alatar]

Because instead of telling me what kind of people you are by handing me your MTBI labels to read, I am discovering it through my discussions with you.

[Túrin Turambar]

I'm still pursuing this discussion because I get the impression that you're acting on some sort of misconception or prejudice. You are happy to observe us to work out something of our character. Observing people to work out something of their character is how the MBTI works - it is a system of doing just that. You seem to arguing that mowing the lawn is fine but using a lawnmower is absurd.

[Alatar]

It may well be that I'm working on a misconception. Certainly not on prejudice, if by that you mean a desire to hate the method whether it is valid or not. As I have explained numerous times now, my observation has been that people are not using the MTBI to observe peoples characters, but rather that people are telling each other their MTBI types as if that describes their character. There is a huge difference.

[yovargas]

It describes a part of their character. That's what it means.

[Alatar]

Then my distinction stands.

[Túrin Turambar]

I rarely tell people my MBTI type, yet I use the principles of the MBTI to work people out all the time.

[Frelga]

I finally figured out how to word my thoughts on the subject.

It may be useful to say, "I observe Frelga to have trait X so she must be type W". I still think it's a very rough shorthand. Kind of like Amazon's "People who have bought this book have also enjoyed..." Sometimes it can get quite accurate, you know.

IMO, and I think that's where Alatar is coming from too, it is not useful and indeed dangerous to say, "Frelga tested as type W so she must have trait X". Because what often happens is that people will notice only those things about Frelga that fit the type, and will miss out on the infinite complexity of Frelga's nature.

If, for instance, you knew beforehand that our types are not compatible, would you not then expect to run into conflicts with me? And wouldn't that make an actual conflict more likely?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

And Lord knows that Frelga's nature is infinitely complex.