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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:05 pm 
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Cerin wrote:
Do you mean, appalling that he has no further questions? They've had extensive testimony already, so this seems reasonable to me. I don't know what more can be asked about the assault beyond, 'Did you do it?' and Kavanaugh has answered that. Is it customary that each and every Senator ask questions?


I read that statement - and it echoes so many statements that have come before it when discussing other allegations of assault, and what I see is this:

It's a shame women keep accusing men of doing things. Why can't women just leave us men alone? Why do they keep having to say things, like bringing up how we once assaulted them? It ruins our lives!

Sure, you can state your sympathy for going through an accusation prior to a conviction. But how about a SPARK of sympathy for the women who have already had their lives ruined, who were the ones actually assaulted, who just wanted the man to leave *them* alone? It's a shame men keep doing these things!

I am getting really sick of the narrative that every woman ever who accuses a man of assault is just ruining his life, and not one thought is given to the man ruining the woman's life!

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:24 pm 
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I'm really missing something here. Elengil, can you relate your comments to the idea of Sen. Corker having no further questions for Kavanaugh. Do you think every Senator should ask for an individual denial?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Cerin wrote:
I'm really missing something here. Elengil, can you relate your comments to the idea of Sen. Corker having no further questions for Kavanaugh. Do you think every Senator should ask for an individual denial?


"I can't imagine the horror of being accused of something like this."

It has nothing to do with whether he has more questions. The appalling part - whether it was what yovargas was calling appalling or not - is that he thinks being accused of sexual assault is a horror, but being sexually assaulted, presumably, is not. The horror is when it hurts a man, not when it was done to a woman. The horror is in imagining being accused, not in imagining being assaulted. The very wording implies that he does not believe it's even something to consider as possibly being true.

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Last edited by elengil on Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:28 pm 
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Seriously? The problem is not that he has no further questions; it's this:
Senator Bob Corker wrote:
I mean I can't imagine the horror of being accused of something like this.


(cross post)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:35 pm 
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WOMAN: That guy sexually assaulted me.

PUBLIC: Oh, that poor guy!


APPALLING.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:48 pm 
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Unless something unexpected happens (like a witness coming forward) this will continue to be one person's word against another, and people are going to have to make a decision about who to believe. Call me cynical, but I don't doubt that people's political leanings are affecting which side they come down on here. Sen. Corker's comments obviously reflect the attitude that he believes Kavanaugh's denial. He wouldn't comment on the horror of being assaulted if he doesn't believe Ford's account, would he? If he believes this is a case of Kavanaugh being falsely accused, then that's the horror he would focus on.

yov, that's an incomplete rendering.

WOMAN: That guy sexually assaulted me.

GUY: I most certainly never did any such thing.

PUBLIC: Considers situation, makes decision: Either woman was assaulted, affecting her life forever, or man is being falsely accused, affecting his life forever.

Oh, that poor woman!
Oh, that poor man!

Either one is valid, and will depend on how the person evaluates the situation. Since there is no factual basis on which to evaluate, it will be a subjective evaluation largely dependent on every individual's personal experience, sympathies and political leanings.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:45 pm 
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You don't have to know the truth to still be sensitive and neutral in your language, especially as a government official who is meant to represent all people. And, moreover, one who is specifically tasked with determining if there is legitimacy to the allegation. Yet he has already decided - without her testimony - that what she claims happened did not happen and therefore Poor Man.

He is not taking a neutral stance toward a difficult decision, weighing both sides equally, he's already decided there is no merit. He is not being careful to frame his comments in light of it being unknown who is telling the truth - he's already decided it's the Man telling the truth.

And this would not be quite so appalling if this was not the default stance. We see it over and over in these situations - whether it's the abuser, or an industry, the media, society at large, there is a default stance of poor Man. Accusers are lying, accusers are ruining men's lives, accusers are being unfair, accusers are framed as the perpetrators rather than the victims. To borrow a previously used phrase, "Why should he suffer for life for 20 minutes of action."

Here is how it might have been worded: I can't imagine the horror of being either the victim of assault, or of a false accusation. But we must discover, insofar as we can, who is being truthful and proceed carefully.

Here we just have the default assumption his life is being ruined unfairly, his wife and children suffering so, being caught up in the cruel, unjust attacks of this woman. Obviously we don't need any investigation or even to hear the testimony of this woman. We know what's going on.

And yet so many people still wonder why she isn't already on the plane to sit before a board of people who may be taking this exact view of things, who seem ready to treat her as the abuser - a hearing which may proceed according to that entrenched bias, not affording her the courtesy, sensitivity, and open mind due to an alleged victim.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:17 pm 
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I had a post almost all ready to go, but elengil said everything that I wanted to say, better than I could have said it.

Apparently, negotiations continue as to whether Dr. Ford will testify. The main sticking points at this point seem to be that the GOP wants it to be Wednesday and Dr. Ford prefers Thursday, and the GOP wants to hire an outside female attorney to do the questioning, while Dr. Ford's attorneys feel that would make it too much like she was on trial.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:15 am 
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elengil, of course your version of the statement would have been far better, but I think it's very naive to expect any Republican to publicly comment in a way that could be taken to imply that they believe Kavanaugh might not be telling the truth. In the same way, I'd be very surprised to see a Democrat publicly said anything that could be taken to imply that Ford might not be telling the truth.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:30 am 
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Meanwhile, the teenagers were taking notes before they went out this weekend...

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:19 am 
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I find it very difficult to believe that Dr Ford is perpetrating a falsehood. She's an intelligent, successful woman with a family- in other words, she has EVERYTHING to lose by speaking out. She was clearly reluctant to do so because she knew the shitstorm that would hit her and her family.
An intell8gent, successful woman does not willingly walk into that on the basis of a lie.

Sent from a tiny phone keyboard via Tapatalk - typos inevitable.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:49 pm 
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Nor does her claims have the characteristics normally associated with false rape claims, as discussed in this article.

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/9 ... lasey-ford

Meanwhile, Sen. Grassley has given Dr. Ford until 2:30 eastern time today decide whether to accept their proposal of a hearing on Wednesday, rather than on Thursday as she had requested.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:13 pm 
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The odds she's lying are practically zero because, as elengil noted, it just doesn't make sense from a cost/benefits perspective. Naively, the most likely explanation is that she's telling the truth, IMO. But it's possible she misinterpreted events at the time, or that her memories have gotten muddled over the years, or something of that sort. If the Senate were composed of serious people, they'd put the nomination on hold until those possibilities could be investigated.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:50 pm 
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While the negotiations as to whether Dr. Ford will testify continue:

Spokesman for GOP on Kavanaugh nomination resigns; has been accused of harassment in the past

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:51 pm 
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He also apparently lied on his resume.

Buried at the bottom of the article is the important bit - that CRC where Ventry worked was behind Whelan’s bizarre tweets that accused an apparently random classmate of being Ford’s attacker on the basis that he looked like Kavanaugh and also Zillow somehow.

Quote:
Politico reported Friday that CRC was behind conservative activist Ed Whelan’s suggestion that he had evidence that a classmate of Kavanaugh had been the perpetrator of the attack on Blasey Ford.

After tweeting and posting photographs and Google maps implicating Kavanaugh’s classmate, Whelan faced considerable backlash, including a statement from Blasey Ford herself saying there was “zero chance” she would confuse the two men. Whelan was forced to apologize.


I have, like, sixty-five posts I could have made but didn't, so this one doesn't count.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:00 pm 
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So in the effort to accuse Kavanaugh's accuser of false accusation, an activist falsely accused someone else in Kavanaugh's circle. That's Coen Brother's material. I hope that activist gets sued for libel.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:11 pm 
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It also conceded that the party and the assault both happened, something they’ve been trying to deny.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:20 pm 
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Even more curiously, it appears that Senate Judiciary Committee member Orrin Hatch knew about Whelan’s tweets in advance.

Although they deny it now.

Hatch aide: We had no role in Ed Whelan's mistaken identity tweetstorm on Kavanaugh

Quote:
Earlier in the week, Hatch spokesman Matt Whitlock tweeted that people should “keep an eye on” the Twitter account of Ed Whelan, president of the Ethics and Public Policy Center, who said he would in coming days confirm Kavanaugh was not at the party where Ford said the alleged sexual assault occurred.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:35 pm 
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"A top press adviser helping lead the Senate Judiciary Committee's response to a sexual assault allegation against Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh has stepped down amid evidence he was fired from a previous political job in part because of a sexual harassment allegation against him."

That sentence is head-spinning. Good lord.

(I would react to the CRC saying but my head is still spinning.)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:38 am 
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The latest word is that Dr. Ford's attorneys responded today to say that she accepted their invitation to testify this coming week, without specifying which day, or agreeing to specific details. So negotiations continue. Supposedly, there is a tentative agreement to do it on Thursday, but other issues such as whether the questioning will be done by the senators themselves or by an outside counsel hired by them.

So far as I know, it is unprecedented to have a Senate committee hearing with questions done by anyone other than the senators themselves. The reason they want to bring in an outside (female) counsel is that they won't like the optics of having an group of elderly white males grilling a woman.

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