Escaping the Echo Chamber

[Impenitent]

I see what you did there; well played.

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

[Cerin]

I see what you did there, but I don't understand the point(s) you were making.

[Alatar]

I saw what you did too but it didn't really make any sense.

[Inanna]

It did to me.

Yov started with the basis that the woman took a risk & paid for it (dearly). And the basis that she should have known its dangerous behavior given the culture. He ended with the media person taking a risk, and paying for it. And that given the culture, he should have known its dangerous as well.

[Lalaith]

I got it too.

And you guys know me. Over 10 years, most of you. Yet, despite that, and despite having a pretty good idea of the content of my character, nobody was willing to even try to reach common ground. Instead, the past 4 pages have been attempting to show me the error of my ways and my presumably male-driven inability to understand why I was being an offensive asshole. I find it telling that the only people to come to my defense were two non-Americans. It makes me think that the divide in your political spectrum is just a symptom of the incredible divide in American psyche and the complete inability or unwillingness to look for common ground with those you disagree with.

I want to circle back around to this because this, just as much as anything else in this thread, hurt. You were talking to a rather culturally diverse group, honestly, including regular, old, "white" Americans (me), immigrants, and first-generation Americans. I realize global opinions about America aren't so hot right now, given the buffoon we have in the Oval Office, plus our other problems which seem to so disproportionately dominate the world news stage. So, yes, we have issues, but, clearly, this is not just an American problem.

The organic nature of discussion in a place like this often means the conversation meanders off into tangents. That is what I saw happening more so than your claim that the Americans could only try to defend their views and attack your opinions (or what they thought were your opinions). I think we're all smart enough here to have gotten what you were going for, we just didn't stick to your planned discussion. Moreover, I saw many people acknowledge common ground with you when they could but still disagree.

As for why it troubles me. Ireland will next year be plunged into the first serious discussion on abortion in decades, and I despair for the level of discourse we face.

You should be concerned because, as I pointed out above, this is not an American phenomenon. And otherwise good people will disagree on the issue. Also stupid people, too.

It is tempting for me to dip my toe into the other discussion going on here about sexual assault, but I'm not sure I can add anything else really. Impy expressed it very well in pointing out how the "taking reasonable precautions" idea can so easily be flipped to blame the victim. And you know what? The victims themselves do this. "Why didn't I say 'no' to going back to the room with this guy?" "Why did I leave my window unlocked?" "I should've known better. I should've read the signs. I should've followed my gut." "I kept thinking, 'What did I do wrong?'" "Why did I go take a shower in the dorm so early when no one else was awake?" "Why did I get so drunk?"

Ad nauseum.

Wilma posted this on FB, and I've been pondering it ever since:

http://www.katykatikate.com/2017/10/nex ... cking.html

It's brutal, but so much of it resonates with me, sorry to say. I don't know. It's pretty harsh....

(Sorry this is rather disjointed. I have a lot of feelings but can't seem to get them out in reasonable words.)

[Cerin]

It did to me.

Yov started with the basis that the woman took a risk & paid for it (dearly). And the basis that she should have known its dangerous behavior given the culture. He ended with the media person taking a risk, and paying for it. And that given the culture, he should have known its dangerous as well.

I do understand that's what was being said, but I didn't get the point of saying it. I think the parallel is valid and the observation is correct in both cases. So was the point just to point out the parallel? I think the aim with such parallels is usually to point out a flaw somewhere in one of the arguments, but I didn't see a flaw.

Impy expressed it very well in pointing out how the "taking reasonable precautions" idea can so easily be flipped to blame the victim.

And because it can be flipped, we are expected to not speak the truth? This is a perfect example of the problem with dialogue in today's hyper-politically correct, social media-addicted world. If the truth is too subtle, it can't be expressed in a tweet, condemnation goes viral and cannot be walked back. Idiocy then rules the world.

Yes, it's easy to misconstrue a comment about taking reasonable precautions (easy to misstate it, too, as the broadcaster did), but that doesn't mean such comments shouldn't be made! That doesn't mean we shouldn't talk sense to people who are behaving foolishly!

And you know what? The victims themselves do this. "Why didn't I say 'no' to going back to the room with this guy?" "Why did I leave my window unlocked?" "I should've known better. I should've read the signs. I should've followed my gut." "I kept thinking, 'What did I do wrong?'" "Why did I go take a shower in the dorm so early when no one else was awake?" "Why did I get so drunk?"

And these are all completely valid and necessary things the victims should say to themselves! So that they don't act foolishly the next time, and increase their chances of being victimized. No, they are not responsible for being assaulted. Yes, they are responsible for having made themselves easy prey.

[Lalaith]

I can't even respond to that, Cerin.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[Cerin]

It makes me think that the divide in your political spectrum is just a symptom of the incredible divide in American psyche and the complete inability or unwillingness to look for common ground with those you disagree with.

edit

Although, Alatar, I wonder if you don't have this reversed. I think the apparent divide in the American psyche might be the symptom of the incredible divide in the political spectrum, which has made people unwilling and unable to, etc.

[Frelga]

Al, to be fair, I didn't really see you trying to reach out and understand why you got the response you did.

Sometimes, you find yourself in the minority simply because you are wrong.

[River]

So I need some clarification.

I don't check the backseat of my car before I get into it. If I've been transporting kids I check before I leave the car, but never before I get in (well, if I'm transporting kids I guess I de facto check before I get in because I load the kids first). Does this mean that, should something happen to me on one of the many occasions I climb into my car, I was "asking for it" because I assumed my locks functioned and my personal space remained personal?

What about the time(s) a male coworker rubbed up against my bum? I thought it was accidental at first but he was literally the only one in the lab who had that problem and he always said "Woohoo!" when he did it. It tended to happen when we were back at the gel bench (an isolated part of the lab space). I had to do work back there if I wanted my PhD...so was it all my fault for not switching labs or getting a different project? I made him stop, by the way. I've got a pretty sharp tongue and when I realized these weren't innocent accidents I let him have a piece of it. My backside remained unmolested for the remaining years we worked together.

How about the time a guy I'd been training with for a couple years made a grab for my crotch in an aikido class? Was it my fault for ever being friendly to him? For engaging in martial arts practice in mixed company...never mind that I'd been training for over half my life at that point and this was the first time any male had done something like that (pussy grabs aren't actual techniques; there was no excuse for that, there wasn't even a way to palm it off as an accident). To keep myself safe, I quit aikido. But was what drove me off the mat something I deserved?

Just checking.

[Cerin]

So I need some clarification.

Does this mean that, should something happen to me on one of the many occasions I climb into my car, I was "asking for it" because I assumed my locks functioned and my personal space remained personal?

No one has said anything about anyone 'asking for it.'

It is not difficult or rare for people who know how, to gain entry into cars. The world is full of people who don't give a damn about your personal space. Therefore, it is possible that someone of ill intent could be hiding in the back seat of your car. If you don't check the back seat of your car, you're less likely to notice if a person of ill intent is lurking there. If you do check the back seat of your car, you have a better chance of escaping the person of ill intent who might be lurking there. Ergo, it is wise to check the back seat of your car before getting in, because it could conceivably decrease your chances of being sexually assaulted in that instance.

If you forget to check the backseat of your car before getting in, or if you obstinately refuse to check the back seat of your car because you believe your personal space ought to be respected, and are subsequently sexually assaulted by the person of ill intent lurking there, was the sexual assault your fault/responsibility? No. Were you asking for it? No. Did you deserve it? No. Was forgetting/refusing to look in the back seat your fault/responsibility? Yes.

If one wants to avoid being the victim of a sexual assault in a world that's demonstrably full of men ready and willing to sexually assault women, one should act with a modicum of caution. It appears, though, that we cannot have an intelligent conversation about the ways a woman might decrease her chances of being sexually assaulted, because, well, that conversation might be misconstrued and hurt women's feelings? How is it supportive or loving to treat women as though they are morons who can't process information about exercising sound judgment? How is it supportive or loving to eschew a conversation that might help women avoid being sexually assaulted, because we are hamstrung by the terror of being politically incorrect?

I had to do work back there if I wanted my PhD...so was it all my fault for not switching labs or getting a different project?

Again, it is never a woman's fault when someone chooses to assault her, and no one has said it is. Nor were you voluntarily choosing to put yourself in a high risk situation in this case, so the example is not applicable to the original post.

How about the time a guy I'd been training with for a couple years made a grab for my crotch in an aikido class? Was it my fault <snip>? To keep myself safe, I quit aikido. But was what drove me off the mat something I deserved?

This so perfectly illustrates Alatar's observation about the inability to really converse. You are talking to yourself. No one else here has suggested that sexual assaults are a woman's fault, or that women deserve them.

[River]

No one else here has suggested that sexual assaults are a woman's fault, or that women deserve them.

And yet you said:

Yes, they are responsible for having made themselves easy prey.

I wrote my post relating a couple real incidents that happened to me in which I was preyed upon. I have no idea how I could have made myself more difficult prey without isolating myself completely from men. The bum-rubs happened while I was doing my job for crying out loud. I was focused on the risks of botching my experiment, starting a fire, getting electrocuted, getting poisoned, and/or dropping some glassware and getting cut by the wreckage. Getting perved on by a married man I had a couple years of seniority over never crossed my mind, honestly. Especially since I wanted to be taken seriously as a scientist so I went out of my way to downplay my femininity. So other than showing up what was I responsible for? And if simply showing up for work makes a woman easy prey, isn't that a sign of a rather nasty problem?

[Cerin]

No one else here has suggested that sexual assaults are a woman's fault, or that women deserve them.

And yet you said:

Yes, they are responsible for having made themselves easy prey.

Yes, and that's exactly what I meant. All of the examples Lalaith gave are things women shouldn't do if they want to avoid being sexually assaulted. They should not go alone with a man to his apartment or hotel room, they should not take showers in the early morning when no one is around, they should not get drunk on a date, they should not ignore intuitive feelings of danger. Women are responsible for their choices, and should recognize when those choices make it easier for men to prey on them. They should examine their behavior, and make changes that will leave them less vulnerable to assault in the future. None of that means that a predator's actions are a woman's fault, or her responsibility, or her just desserts, or what she asked for.

The examples you gave, apart from not checking your car, are not examples of choosing to engage in high risk behavior. The original post dealt with the idea of women engaging in behavior that puts them at a higher risk for sexual assault. You weren't responsible for choices that increased your risk of being assaulted. Yes, of course it is a sign of a very nasty problem. I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise.

[River]

I'd say checking my car is a bit much. It never even occurred to me to do something like that until I saw it written here.

You can spend your time and energy dotting every i and crossing every t that's on all the checklists to not be easy prey that's responsible for the thing that happened and things will still happen. At some point, you have to decide what's worth worrying about. And I just don't have the energy for the car thing. Especially since I learned the hard way that doing all the proper things doesn't make the damnedest bit of difference (well, in hindsight, I was the nicest female in that lab...maybe that was why I became a target...is being friendly to a coworker high risk?). The pervs are gonna be out there perving. I got the behavior in my graduate lab to stop by being sassy (nice people do have spines) but I wouldn't be surprised if he went on to do the same thing to a different woman in a different place. And that's the way the pervs will operate until the rest of the world wakes up and realizes that being a all good and responsible and stuff is not enough and will never be enough. So instead of trying to keep pointing fingers back at the women who got assaulted after not doing all the things on all the lists maybe we need to think about how to make those lists obsolete.

[Primula Baggins]

What River said.

[Alatar]

Sorry, I've been pretty busy this weekend and the conversation has run on a bit but I want to address a few points from further back.

It did to me.

Yov started with the basis that the woman took a risk & paid for it (dearly). And the basis that she should have known its dangerous behavior given the culture. He ended with the media person taking a risk, and paying for it. And that given the culture, he should have known its dangerous as well.

Yeah I got what he was trying to say but I felt it didn't work (for me, YMMV). The first sentence was the one that made the most sense, but only assuming that what he said should or would be a fireable offence. He was literally doing his job, talk radio, which is about opinion and information. He gave his opinion and stated it clumsily. He had no reason to believe he would be fired for a mistake. Its not like he's been almost fired before, or other broadcasters have been. The "culture" you describe is not one that is the norm in Ireland. People don't tend to get fired for stating a controversial opinion here.

I want to circle back around to this because this, just as much as anything else in this thread, hurt. You were talking to a rather culturally diverse group, honestly, including regular, old, "white" Americans (me), immigrants, and first-generation Americans. I realize global opinions about America aren't so hot right now, given the buffoon we have in the Oval Office, plus our other problems which seem to so disproportionately dominate the world news stage. So, yes, we have issues, but, clearly, this is not just an American problem.

The organic nature of discussion in a place like this often means the conversation meanders off into tangents. That is what I saw happening more so than your claim that the Americans could only try to defend their views and attack your opinions (or what they thought were your opinions). I think we're all smart enough here to have gotten what you were going for, we just didn't stick to your planned discussion. Moreover, I saw many people acknowledge common ground with you when they could but still disagree.

As for why it troubles me. Ireland will next year be plunged into the first serious discussion on abortion in decades, and I despair for the level of discourse we face.

You should be concerned because, as I pointed out above, this is not an American phenomenon. And otherwise good people will disagree on the issue. Also stupid people, too.

I didn't intend to be offensive or hurt anyone. I wasn't trying to lump in all Americans, I was trying to demonstrate that this board in particular has a predominantly left wing American bias, and that this contributes to the very "Echo Chamber" effect I was talking about. As such, the demographic of the people who vehemently disagreed with the point I raised were (mostly) that very demographic, which highlights the point I was trying to make. No offense was intended, but until this is recognised as "We all agree therefore we must be right", then discussion here is pointless.

Quod erat demonstrandum:

Sometimes, you find yourself in the minority simply because you are wrong.

[yovargas]

It appears, though, that we cannot have an intelligent conversation about the ways a woman might decrease her chances of being sexually assaulted, because, well, that conversation might be misconstrued and hurt women's feelings?

I think it is very important to note that if Al had started a thread saying "I have a daughter of college age and with all the stories of sexual assault, I worry for her. What advice could I give to her that could help her safety?"...I doubt anybody would have been the slightest bit upset, and probably the women on the board would share their varying thoughts on the subject.

That isn't what Al did. Instead, he posted a quote of someone being harshly judgmental towards a rape victim and then basically saying, well, he said it poorly but doesn't he have a point in being judgmental?

And the answer from many was - no, it is unfair, unhelpful, cruel, and counter-productive to throw judgment at the victim.

It is not the "conversation about the ways a woman might decrease her chances of being sexually assaulted" that is a problem. Not in the least. It is the judgment of women who make different choices than you would make. It is up to every woman, every individual, to decide what risks they feel are worth taking in life considering that it is impossible to live a risk-free life.

In short, STOP JUDGING WOMEN, IT IS NOT HELPING!!!

[yovargas]

And for good measure, another thing that I think is important to add: nobody is perfect. I am not perfect. I have had times when, unaware of them, negative biases and prejudices towards women, blacks, even gays affected my thoughts or behaviors. I have been openly and unashamedly gay for over 20 years and have caught myself having homophobic reactions! I believe everyone living in our culture does this sometimes. It is impossible to escape. It's part of being human. Nobody is perfect.

That is why, Al, the "you've known me 10 years" line doesn't mean much to me. I think you're a great guy. I consider you a real friend. I believe very firmly that you try your best. But that doesn't mean you're perfect anymore than I am. We all have things to learn, myself very much included. That I think there are some important aspects of this topic you're not quite seeing doesn't mean I don't still very much respect you (I hope that doesn't sound condescending; it is certainly not intended as such). I don't have a problem respectfully disagreeing.

I don't particularly care one way or the other wether or not this particular broadcaster was fired or not. I think it's utterly unimportant and not worth talking about. But I do think it is worth remembering that, hey, folks, nobody is perfect, starting with and including yourself. If we start burning at the stake everyone who makes a careless mistake, we'll all be burning soon. Which is not to say that we don't try to push each other to keep trying to do better. But I little forgiveness is due for all of us who generally try our best, but occasionally screw up because we're human.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

You're a pretty great guy, too, yov.

Just sayin'.

[Sunsilver]

Well said, Yov!

I don't think any of us are without personal biases. I think it's a part of human nature to be suspicious of things that our outside our experience. And of course, this includes people that are different from us.