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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:57 pm 
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His new campaign slogan:

Vote for Obama: HE'S BETTER THAN MOST!

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:01 pm 
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Compared to an illegal invasion of a foreign nation, I'd say "sweetie" is pretty much a lesser crime. Pretty much.

There are those who will point fingers at the man now and more or less hysterically, in shrill and penetrating voices, tell us he is obviously unfit to be president. These shrill hysterics will be of several sexes and political persuasions, creating the oddest synergy.

Mr. Bush is slithering away, untouched. He will be smiling serenely into the dark knowing that whether it is President McCain or President Obama, the mess in Iraq is still lying in the road, stinking and festering. Mr. Bush will go and cut brush on his toy ranch, pretending to be a hardy, manly guy. He'll get together with the guyz he "served" with. They'll share war stories the way old guyz do.

Sometimes life is just so unfair. I think Mr. Bush should have to retire to Baghdad and instead of cutting brush, he could stroll the now safe streets, stop at cafes, buy a pomegranate at the market. Hang out with the freedom-loving rulers of the city. That sorta fing.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:06 pm 
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Compared to an illegal invasion of a foreign nation, I'd say "sweetie" is pretty much a lesser crime. Pretty much.


Illegal? Congress authorized it, invoking the War Powers Act. That makes it legal.


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:08 pm 
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solicitr wrote:
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Compared to an illegal invasion of a foreign nation, I'd say "sweetie" is pretty much a lesser crime. Pretty much.


Illegal? Congress authorized it, invoking the War Powers Act. That makes it legal.


Sure, because American law trumps all.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:14 pm 
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Are you suggesting that there exists some other law which binds the American government?


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:16 pm 
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Cerin wrote:
I wonder what Obama would have said had it been a male reporter?


Maybe he'd call him sweetie, too? :D ;)


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:17 pm 
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Maria wrote:
Cerin wrote:
I wonder what Obama would have said had it been a male reporter?


Maybe he'd call him sweetie, too? :D ;)


My money's on "dude." 8)

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:26 pm 
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solicitr wrote:
Are you suggesting that there exists some other law which binds the American government?


Good heavens, no. :shock: The American government can do whatever it wants and always does. The rest of the world is wrong, whenever the laws/opinions/interests of the rest of the world are in conflict with American laws/opinions/interests. We know that, but sometimes we forget. And then, well, then the USA gives us all a little object lesson and guess what? We're better for it. Yes, indeed. :D

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:26 pm 
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About Iraq, Obama's Web site says the following (link):

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Bringing Our Troops Home

Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months. Obama will make it clear that we will not build any permanent bases in Iraq. He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda.

Press Iraq’s Leaders to Reconcile

The best way to press Iraq’s leaders to take responsibility for their future is to make it clear that we are leaving. As we remove our troops, Obama will engage representatives from all levels of Iraqi society – in and out of government – to seek a new accord on Iraq’s Constitution and governance. The United Nations will play a central role in this convention, which should not adjourn until a new national accord is reached addressing tough questions like federalism and oil revenue-sharing.

Regional Diplomacy

Obama will launch the most aggressive diplomatic effort in recent American history to reach a new compact on the stability of Iraq and the Middle East. This effort will include all of Iraq’s neighbors — including Iran and Syria. This compact will aim to secure Iraq’s borders; keep neighboring countries from meddling inside Iraq; isolate al Qaeda; support reconciliation among Iraq’s sectarian groups; and provide financial support for Iraq’s reconstruction.

Humanitarian Initiative

Obama believes that America has a moral and security responsibility to confront Iraq’s humanitarian crisis — two million Iraqis are refugees; two million more are displaced inside their own country. Obama will form an international working group to address this crisis. He will provide at least $2 billion to expand services to Iraqi refugees in neighboring countries, and ensure that Iraqis inside their own country can find a safe-haven.


That's not exactly dropping our guns and sprinting for the airport.

Oh, and McCain now has a timetable for withdrawal, too; he just announced it today. (2013—assuming we've won by then. That's only ten more Friedman units!)

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/15/ ... index.html

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:29 pm 
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whether it is President McCain or President Obama, the mess in Iraq is still lying in the road, stinking and festering.


Whereas had it been President Gore or President Kerry, Saddam Hussein would still be lying in the road in Iraq, stinking and festering.

Perhaps you think that Iraq will get all better once the US pulls out?


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:32 pm 
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Well, several hundred thousand people would still be alive who are now dead, including 4,000 U.S. troops. Was killing Saddam Hussein really worth that in your eyes?

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― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:45 pm 
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solicitr wrote:
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whether it is President McCain or President Obama, the mess in Iraq is still lying in the road, stinking and festering.


Whereas had it been President Gore or President Kerry, Saddam Hussein would still be lying in the road in Iraq, stinking and festering.

Perhaps you think that Iraq will get all better once the US pulls out?


The thing is, you really believe - or you want me to think you really believe - that you think the US was right legally and morally to invade Iraq and depose Saddam Hussein and I really believe - and I want you to think I REALLY believe that the US did not have either the legal or moral right to do so.

Of course Iraq won't be all better once the US pulls out. How can it be? You guys made a bad situation even worse. You had no business going in and now you can't fix it. Sux to be you.

No one is going to look good on this one, solictr. This is going to hang around rotting for a long, long, long time. Mr. Bush is not the hero holding off the hordes of barbarians, Mr. Bush is a barbarian.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:51 pm 
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The executive branch fabricated the causus belli. This is what makes the Iraq war illegal. It is at best an impeachable offense.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 7:21 pm 
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Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:
His new campaign slogan:

Vote for Obama: HE'S BETTER THAN MOST!


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 7:22 pm 
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:D

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 7:37 pm 
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Primula Baggins wrote:
Oh, and McCain now has a timetable for withdrawal, too; he just announced it today. (2013—assuming we've won by then. That's only ten more Friedman units!)


Or to look at it another way: 5 years is one year shorter than WWII and one longer than WWI. So he is basically proposing we extend Iraq by the average length of an entire world war.

ETA: I really don't understand why "sweetie" is such a big deal. Where I live (which is pretty close to where Obama's lived), cashiers, tellers, etc. will address pretty much anyone younger than themselves that way.


Last edited by Dave_LF on Thu May 15, 2008 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 7:40 pm 
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the iraq war argument can go back and forth and back and forth, and each side believes the other side is blind to the truth.

History will show if it was a good thing or a bad.

Unless, of course, Obama undoes any of the good that's been achieved.

I particularly like the bit about diplomacy... because if they won't listen to our guns, I'm sure they'll listen to our words... These people don't THINK like that!

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 8:04 pm 
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Unless, of course, Obama undoes any of the good that's been achieved.


Is that the only option you see for his plan? Undoing what little good has been done?

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 8:57 pm 
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Ultimately, yes, I believe if he pulls everyone out, and relies strictly on diplomacy, Iraq will be overrun by other countries/powers in the region, and the world will be far worse off than it has been in a long time.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 9:11 pm 
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The executive branch fabricated the causus belli.


1) Under international law, there was a pre-existing state of war between Iraq and the US.

2) By 'fabricated' are you claiming that Bush & Co had affirmative knowledge that Saddam had destroyed his remaining WMDs after 1998? Moreover, the specific causus belli was not the possession of WMD alone, but Saddam's repeated violations of the al-Safwan ceasefire.

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Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months....That's not exactly dropping our guns and sprinting for the airport.


Sure it is. That's as fast as, or faster than, our logistical capacity can move them. Any quicker and it'd be helicopters on the embassy roof all over again.

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He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda.


Please. AQ doesn't do 'bases'= they take over towns and neighborhoods and hold the inhabitants as camouflage and human shields. Not exactly airstrike meat.

I notice BO says nothing at all about destroying AQ-I while we already have the troops there.

Quote:
Obama will launch the most aggressive diplomatic effort in recent American history to reach a new compact on the stability of Iraq and the Middle East. This effort will include all of Iraq’s neighbors — including Iran and Syria. This compact will aim to .... isolate al Qaeda;


Right. Isolate al-Qaeda by negotiating with Iran??!!! No, the correct course is to isolate both AQ *and* Iran- which is by far the more dangerous of the two. This sort of naivite is reminiscent of Jimmy Carter- whose foreign policy advisor BO has pulled out of retirement.

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Well, several hundred thousand people would still be alive who are now dead......


if you believe that figure- and how many Iraqis would Saddam have killed in five years? Note also that the vast majority of those civilian dead were slaughtered by their fellow-countrymen, not by us.

Quote:
.....including 4,000 U.S. troops. Was killing Saddam Hussein really worth that in your eyes?


Well, since the Pentagon's planners estimated that the butcher's bill for the invasion alone would be 5000 US dead, I'd say it's well within spec. They were pretty astounded at how quickly the Iraqi Army collapsed. But in fact 90% of our casualties have occurred during the occupation: a foolish project which should never have been embarked upon. We should have gone in, bagged Saddam, and left. Unfortunately, now we have a commitment (which BO is determined to welch on).

In passing it's worth mentioning that BO talks about concentrating on AQ in Afghanistan- except AQ isn't there, but in Pakistan- and says nothing whatsoever about destroying the Taliban. I suppose he intends to 'negotiate' with them too.

Quote:
and I want you to think I REALLY believe that the US did not have either the legal or moral right to do so.


Your moral viewpoint is your own: but if you're going to comment on the legal side and toss around terms like 'illegal' and 'war criminals' then you had better be prepared to cite some law to back it up. What you REALLY believe is not a legal argument.

To recap: We were right to dump Saddam. We were foolish to try to remake Iraq in our image and solve the Iraqis' problems for them. But now we're stuck with it, until (1) Al Qaeda in Iraq is completely rooted out and destroyed, and (2) the power of the Mahdi Army is broken. Then we bring the boys home- and just possibly the Iraqis can come to a political settlement without the terrorist gangs running amok. And, no, the Mad Mullahs in Teheran do not get a say in it.


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