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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:22 pm 
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I've come to the same conclusion about Palin. Enough is enough, and it can't possibly all be true.

Why should we believe nasty things about Palin coming out of the McCain campaign? They haven't proved themselves to be the most truthful bunch of people, especially where their own political benefit is at stake.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:28 pm 
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And suddenly shes' the only one at fault? Not McCain for saying "the fundamentals of the economy are strong". She's not fit to be VP, but she doesn't deserve this nonsense.

Personally I don't think she cost McCain one vote. If she put off the independents, she brought in the evangelicals and anti-abortion people.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:37 pm 
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Agreed. They have only themselves to blame if they were surprised by anything she said or did.

Politics is not for the faint of heart, or for those who are prone to self doubt. I can see how ego driven narcissistic people would have a tendency to do well in the political arena. It's like the lions and the Christians out there. :shock:

There was sniping coming out the Hillary campaign, too, last spring. All I can say is that it is even more remarkable that the Obama campaign is so tight, with no in-fighting. However, had he lost, I'm sure it would look a lot less pretty right now.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:45 pm 
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Holbytla wrote:
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Why trash her?


Scapegoat. The campaign wonks are trying to bring everyone down with them. She did her fair share of screwing up, but not nearly as much as the people trying to drag her through the mud.


Scapegoat, sure. I agree with Ellie (and you at the same time, imagine that! :D) - McCain's campaign has only themselves to blame for giving her a spot on the ticket. She did what they wanted her to do, not only firing up the base, but doing most of the dirty job of divisive, nasty campaigning so McCain could look all aggrieved and say how much he respects Senator Obama, my friends.

Besides, there is no profit for the Republican party in protecting McCain. He is not running again. She might, so why throw her under the bus?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:51 pm 
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Thanks...HEY !!!
What is so incredulous about agreeing with me?
I am a very practical non-extremist realist. I call things as I see them, unabashedly and unbiasedly.
oh...I see why you are surprised now. :P

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:58 pm 
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See? I was right about Michele's dress too.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/living ... .dress.cnn

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:07 pm 
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Could you summarize?

Mac users don't exist for CNN, so I can't watch their videos.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:08 pm 
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Oh it was a fashion segment on CNN. They referred to different websites like People who ran polls regarding Michelle's election night dress. Over 80% didn't like the dress.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:13 pm 
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Quote:
She might, so why throw her under the bus?


Because the money wing of the party wants her there. They don't like candidates from the fundie wing they can't control, and they don't like cannons looser than McCain either.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:16 pm 
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The final electoral vote is in. Obama won Omaha and thus gets one electoral vote from Nebraska. That takes him to 365. A nice, round number.

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― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:25 pm 
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Holbytla wrote:
Quote:
Why trash her?


Scapegoat. The campaign wonks are trying to bring everyone down with them. She did her fair share of screwing up, but not nearly as much as the people trying to drag her through the mud.


Well, nasty as it is, and it IS nasty, I hope it has the effect of keeping her in Alaska, in obscurity. I also hope it teaches her that the Karma Chameleon gets even former beauty queens in designer clothes. She dished out a lot of venom, and the universe is operating as it should: payback. It's a sorry sight, I agree. Horrid people doing horrid things.

They are cheezed off pretty royally, and people who are cheezed off have to run around breaking stuff.

They'll get over it and they'll go out and rebuild and come back leaner and tougher and smarter. Right?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:40 pm 
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Mahima wrote:
. . . .

Personally I don't think she cost McCain one vote. If she put off the independents, she brought in the evangelicals and anti-abortion people.


Who else were they going to vote for? Obama? They were going to vote for McCain anyway. She drove away the moderate/centrists.

I disagree with you Mahima. She cost McCain several votes that I know of personally, and the anecdotal evidence on political blogs strongly supports my opinion. She probably also cost him Colin Powell and we read the opinions of a few other prominent Republicans.

While it is a spectacle of no common order to see her being trashed by her own party, and she may not deserve all the opprobrium she's getting, the truth is that she was just what she appeared to be and luckily for America people saw that.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:46 pm 
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vison wrote:
Mahima wrote:
. . . .

Personally I don't think she cost McCain one vote. If she put off the independents, she brought in the evangelicals and anti-abortion people.


Who else were they going to vote for? Obama? They were going to vote for McCain anyway. She drove away the moderate/centrists.


Some people take a look at the options and choose "none of the above." It's theorized that one of the reasons Republicans listen to the evangelicals is because they are willing to "take their ball and go home" instead of playing the "lesser of two evils" game.

The point Mahima is making is that while she drove off some centrists, she got some evangelicals to show up to the polls.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:53 pm 
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As an Independant who might have actually considered McCain at one time had he picked a different VP and stayed true to his 2000 self, yes Palin was the last straw for me. So yes she did cost McCain at least one vote. I know for a fact she cost him more than one vote. My grandmother and several of her friends who have always been Republicans decided to vote for Obama, because of Palin. These are old white women from Arizona.

I am also tired of the Palin bashing but the facts are she did damage to the McCain camp and they are going to throw her under the bus. That said I think the whole of the GOP is pretty much under there with her at this point in time. They need to re-think and re-tool, get back to be fiscal conservatives and more to center.

This election proved that the American people are sick of the so far right and not enough centerist movement within the GOP.

Can't say in four years if the same thing will happen with the DEM. party, as it could very well happen.

My opinion is it may be time for a serious third party to get it together, the common sense party maybe.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:57 pm 
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C_G wrote:
The point Mahima is making is that while she drove off some centrists, she got some evangelicals to show up to the polls.


Yes, thats what I mean. Thanks C_G.

vison, given the age group of the people that voted for McCain, am not sure how many of them actually show up at blogs.

I don't like her, either. But there was something about Ms. Folksy which attracted a higher number of people to her rallies than to McCain's.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:02 am 
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Oh, I agree that "the base" adored Sarah Palin. But they would have voted for McCain anyway - or not voted at all. But, many people understood that a non-vote for McCain translated into a vote for Obama, so they probably would have turned out in about the same numbers anyway.

I was quite struck with the low turnout. But I've now read several analyses that conclude that the turnout could/would have been much lower, given the trend over the last decades of declining turnout.

I hope that new voters are now thrilled with the election process and plan to stay involved.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:32 am 
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sauronsfinger wrote:
Statement from Harry Reid regarding Joseph Liebermann of Connecticut:

"Today Senator Lieberman and I had the first of what I expect to be several conversations. No decisions have been made....


That meeting as <imagined> by a commenter at the center-left The New Republic website:

Quote:
Lieberman: Can you get me off the hook, Harry?

Reid: Can't do it, Joe.

Lieberman: Tell Barack it was strictly business. I always liked him.

Reid: He understands that.



In the interest of unnecessary fairness: a couple months ago, I thought an <imagined> dialogue for Barack Obama's meeting with Bill Clinton at the conservative Anchoress blog was cute, too. Excerpt:

Quote:
The One: What I mean, is, uhm, when Charlie Rangel suggested you taking offices here, it just uhm, under- underscored your lifelong commitment to fairness and your emm, legacy of commitment to small community underprivileged paradigms and archetypes of social architecture of your gravity and boundless past and future greatness. Um. Mr. President.

Don Clinton leans back in his chair, highly amused. He takes the cigar out of his mouth.

Don Clinton: Jonah Goldberg.

The One: Excuse me?

Don Clinton: Jonah Goldberg told me to take my offices to Harlem, not Rangel. Rangel got me to build a house in the Dominican Republic.


Though perhaps the same meeting was even more amusing as <conjured> by the same TNR commenter cited above, hardly changing the source dialogue at all. Excerpt:

Quote:
Obama and Biden approach Clinton, who is chopping wood on a farm for his breakfast

Obama: Morning. I'm a friend of Howard Dean's. He tells me you're broke.

Clinton: Nah. I'm doing this because I'm an eccentric millionaire.

Obama: There's a job for six men, watching over a village south of the border.

Clinton: How big's the opposition?

Obama: Thirty guns.

Clinton [stops axe in mid-swing]: I admire your notion of fair odds, mister.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:02 am 
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Right now we are witnessing the early days of the Republican civil war to determine what happens with the Party over the next few months leading into the next four years. What is happening with the information being released about Palin is simply part of that process. The Republicans who are putting forth this information obviously do not want her or what she represents to be the reformed Party.

Yes, Sarah Palin energized the base.
Yes, Sarah Palin brought a great deal of money into the Party.
Yes, Sarah Palin brought people to the rallies.

But far more importantly, Yes, Sarah Palin was thought to be unqualified for her nominated position by 60% of the voting public as seen in several polling surveys.

She is one reason why John McCain lost. And yes indeed, she cost McCain votes from that middle group of Independents.

McCain also lost because of his inabilty to articulate a vision for America.
McCain also lost because of his inability to decide on one coherent message that rang true with voters.
McCain also lost because he was on the wrong side of issues like deregulation of the economy over the last two decades.
McCain also lost because when the economy crashed in late September, he crashed right along with it.

McCain is part of the anti-government crowd who articulates one very out of date message which is basically anti-government. The garbage about the phony plumber illustrated that.

People do not want to hear out of date idealogy about destroying the power of government. They want to know how government is going to help deal with the problems facing this nation and their lives. Obama spoke to that and won.

America today is not the America of 1980 with Ronald Reagan telling government to get out of the way. Look at any calendar and it says late 2008. You cannnot turn back the clock.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:01 am 
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Re: Palin

Getting base to show up in states you're going to take anyway doesn't help as much as driving off centrists in states still up for grabs hurts. Look at the NY Times county-by-county chart of the change from 2004. There's a red gash from the south part of W. Virginia through KY and TN to AR and OK. That's the only area Palin was a net positive.

Going with Palin and her crowd would turn the GOP into a regional party, probably for good. I listened to a guy who helped found The Heritage Foundation explain why he voted for Obama on NPR. Don't tell me the money wing wouldn't walk if the hillbilly wing took over.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:19 am 
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There is a lot of ways to look at this campaign.
Coming from the heels of one of if not the most unpopular president, the republicans, ie McCain/Palin, still managed to accumulate 57 million+ votes. And there are probably 57 million reasons why. I guess the trick is to appeal to a broad base and a running mate can help with that.

Having said that, they could probably have dug up Nixon's dog Checkers and he would received his fair share of votes.

It is hard to attribute a few factors to a win or a loss, but personally I never thought the republicans had a chance unless Obama or whomever the democratic nominee was shot themselves in the foot. The tenor in this country was bad enough that most any republican was going to lose.

That isn't taking anything away from Obama because he ran a great campaign and looks like he has a lot to offer the country.

McCain had a shot portraying himself as an outsider, but need drove him to garner the support of his party and placate them. Up to and including going to the White House and bowing before George.

I am willing to bet that had a greater net deficit than any running mate could have.

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