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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:28 am 
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It seems pretty ridiculous to me as well, Lord_M. You get the degree or you don't; you get honors or you don't. People who don't deserve the schools they get into usually don't last long there; they don't graduate magna cum laude, that's for sure.

No employer asks to see your college transcript for a job application. The question is whether you have the degree.

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― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:29 am 
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I didn't say McCain's refusal was ok, only that I didn't care personally, and don't see why anyone would, as he admits to being a bad student that did poorly.

Yeah, it's a lot tougher to find people willing to point out others that hate America since McCarthy went overboard. Of course, when they spout anti-american statements from their pulpet, it's a little easier to spot them than Communists.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:31 am 
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Yeah, blaming your problems on what happened to "your people" decades and centuries ago, on white people... that's healthy for your audience.

Well it was in Wright's lifetime and the lifetime of much of his community. It isn't ancient history.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:32 am 
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Primula Baggins wrote:
It seems pretty ridiculous to me as well, Lord_M. You get the degree or you don't; you get honors or you don't. People who don't deserve the schools they get into usually don't last long there; they don't graduate magna cum laude, that's for sure.

No employer asks to see your college transcript for a job application. The question is whether you have the degree.


And people that DO deserve schools don't get in because other's leapt over them unfairly. But I keep forgetting, to you all it's all about lifting everyone up, rather than rewarding hard work. It's tough to remember that sometimes, given that we're in America.

And employers might not ask (unless you have no experience), but college admissions certainly do.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:34 am 
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ToshoftheWuffingas wrote:
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Yeah, blaming your problems on what happened to "your people" decades and centuries ago, on white people... that's healthy for your audience.

Well it was in Wright's lifetime and the lifetime of much of his community. It isn't ancient history.


So you're saying racism is ok if you've been a victim of it?

That's pretty bleak... means it will never go away. I suppose we should treasure our racism then, keep it close, and make sure our children never forget to continue their racism, after all, it's all that other race's fault, right?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:39 am 
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halplm wrote:
ToshoftheWuffingas wrote:
Well you know if my people had been lynched and humiliated and refused the vote and kept apart and kept poor and despised, I might just feel a bit snippy about it.


Yeah, blaming your problems on what happened to "your people" decades and centuries ago, on white people... that's healthy for your audience.


Wright was born in 1941 during a time when racism was still rampant. I daresay he experienced its nastiness firsthand and isn't just railing against things that happened decades and centuries ago. Experiencing that sort of thing will definitely colour one's world view, make one sensitive to the issue still being present and as Tosh eloquently put it, "a bit snippy."

edit: Tosh beat me to the point.


Last edited by Erunáme on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:39 am 
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I don't really understand what your beef is, halplm. You think Obama didn't deserve to get into Harvard? That he got in on connections? Even if that were true, so what? He obviously made the most of the opportunity once he was there.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:40 am 
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But Obama isn't applying to college. His grades are a smoke screen for any real opposition to his policies. You say some people do deserve to get into college don't, but what's the point? You have not proven that Obama didn't deserve his admission. You are speculating, not asking why. That's not honest inquiry, it is looking for anything to attack Obama on.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:42 am 
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halplm wrote:
But I keep forgetting, to you all it's all about lifting everyone up, rather than rewarding hard work. It's tough to remember that sometimes, given that we're in America.


How dare you assume you know what I think, or why.

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“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:43 am 
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So is the only way for an American to avoid hating America is to never criticise it?
If I criticise some aspect of my country, its class inequalities, its urban squalor, its street violence, its dumbing down of broadcasting, its tabloid xenophobic hatreds etc etc; does that make me un British or anti British or not the real British as the current phraseology has it?
Or are only certain groups allowed to criticise their societies without being labelled unpatriotic?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:45 am 
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TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:
But Obama isn't applying to college. His grades are a smoke screen for any real opposition to his policies. You say some people do deserve to get into college don't, but what's the point? You have not proven that Obama didn't deserve his admission. You are speculating, not asking why. That's not honest inquiry, it is looking for anything to attack Obama on.


No, it's actually curiosity as to why he would hide his past, and lie about it.

not two things I want in a president.

I have plenty of issues with his policies, but he's convinced everyone here who has decided to vote for him that they can be ok with their policies. what scares me, is that his policies might be far far far more to the left, and people are buying into someone that is not really there, because he's been crafting this image of himself to get elected for over half his life.

So there are flaws in the image the further back you go... and I'm picking at them because I don't buy into the image, and want people to see it for what it is... an image, not really him.

That's why the fact he wants to hide his grades is important. WHY? There must be something to hide beyong embarassment at flunking math or something.

But anyway, don't think I'm going to convince anyone... really just want to be able to point back to this and say I told you so when he raises your taxes next year.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:46 am 
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I don't know, tosh, but it seems that it is perfectly acceptable to throw the slam of anti-American around without considering its power. This is actually happening in the election as well (Sen. Bachman of Minnesota and Sarah Palin mentioning "pro-American parts of the country".


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:47 am 
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halplm wrote:
So you're saying racism is ok if you've been a victim of it?

That's pretty bleak... means it will never go away. I suppose we should treasure our racism then, keep it close, and make sure our children never forget to continue their racism, after all, it's all that other race's fault, right?


You know, you hold some pretty heavy grudges regarding message-board politics and don't let anyone forget how you feel you've been wronged. Yet Wright and other's who experienced outright hatred just for the colour of their skin are supposed to quickly forget all that happened to them and pretend all is right with the world? No reverse racism doesn't do any good, but having anger over what happened and still does happen is certainly understandable.

Personally I don't know enough about the man to know whether he's truly a racist or not.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:47 am 
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ToshoftheWuffingas wrote:
So is the only way for an American to avoid hating America is to never criticise it?
If I criticise some aspect of my country, its class inequalities, its urban squalor, its street violence, its dumbing down of broadcasting, its tabloid xenophobic hatreds etc etc; does that make me un British or anti British or not the real British as the current phraseology has it?
Or are only certain groups allowed to criticise their societies without being labelled unpatriotic?


I didn't say he was unpatriotic. I said he hated america.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:49 am 
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hal wrote:
I have plenty of issues with his policies, but he's convinced everyone here who has decided to vote for him that they can be ok with their policies. what scares me, is that his policies might be far far far more to the left, and people are buying into someone that is not really there, because he's been crafting this image of himself to get elected for over half his life


You've proved it. You have no interest in debating Obama's policies, so let's go after his grades and other things unimportant to a president. Proof of grades being unimportant: George Bush.


Last edited by TheEllipticalDisillusion on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Primula Baggins wrote:
halplm wrote:
But I keep forgetting, to you all it's all about lifting everyone up, rather than rewarding hard work. It's tough to remember that sometimes, given that we're in America.


How dare you assume you know what I think, or why.


Meant that as a general you, sorry for the confusion.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:50 am 
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TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:
hal wrote:
I have plenty of issues with his policies, but he's convinced everyone here who has decided to vote for him that they can be ok with their policies. what scares me, is that his policies might be far far far more to the left, and people are buying into someone that is not really there, because he's been crafting this image of himself to get elected for over half his life


You've proved it. You have no interest in debating Obama's policies, so let's go after his grades and other things unimportant to a president.


Which policy would you like to discuss?

Earlier today I brought up his tax plan, and how it was socialist. If you'd like to check out those posts, and argue about that, feel free. People seemed more interested in this stuff, as they kind of stopped arguing about the tax plans. I just assumed that I'd won that argument.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:51 am 
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TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:
hal wrote:
I have plenty of issues with his policies, but he's convinced everyone here who has decided to vote for him that they can be ok with their policies. what scares me, is that his policies might be far far far more to the left, and people are buying into someone that is not really there, because he's been crafting this image of himself to get elected for over half his life


You've proved it. You have no interest in debating Obama's policies, so let's go after his grades and other things unimportant to a president. Proof of grades being unimportant: George Bush.


Try Bill Clinton and Al Gore.

Never said the grades were important, only that he's hiding them.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:53 am 
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ToshoftheWuffingas wrote:
So is the only way for an American to avoid hating America is to never criticise it?


To some people and in some parts of the country, yes. It's really sad. I hear this from other American Expats. If they mention anything negative about America or gush a little bit about the UK, their American family retorts back hating America type statements.

[quote="halplm"]No, it's actually curiosity as to why he would hide his past, and lie about it.

not two things I want in a president."]

I don't understand how you can say that and think Palin is great.

edited to fix quotes again :roll:


Last edited by Erunáme on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:53 am 
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Erunáme wrote:
halplm wrote:
So you're saying racism is ok if you've been a victim of it?

That's pretty bleak... means it will never go away. I suppose we should treasure our racism then, keep it close, and make sure our children never forget to continue their racism, after all, it's all that other race's fault, right?


You know, you hold some pretty heavy grudges regarding message-board politics and don't let anyone forget how you feel you've been wronged. Yet Wright and other's who experienced outright hatred just for the colour of their skin are supposed to quickly forget all that happened to them and pretend all is right with the world? No reverse racism doesn't do any good, but having anger over what happened and still does happen is certainly understandable.

Personally I don't know enough about the man to know whether he's truly a racist or not.


Well, I do, and he is. He's welcome to be angry. He's welcome to preach angry. I just want Obama to explain why he was willing to listen to that for 20 years, and that he has disagreed with it the entire time he listened to it, rather than only when it was politically necessary for him to do so.


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