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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:34 pm 
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Living in hope
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smoke=fire, most of the time


Sorry—the deal in this country is, innocent until proven guilty, all of the time.

There isn't even any smoke; there's no evidence of wrongdoing. If there were, there could and would be an investigation. Lacking that, and given that Obama is complying with the law, there's nothing there.

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“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:36 pm 
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More than I've gotten Ellie. But my contribution probably went to printing a few dozen of those shirts. :cheers:

You're throwing around some heavy charges hal. Got anything substantial to back them up? I kind of resent being accused of collaborating in fraud. Especially when I, well, didn't.

Prim, there is that suspicious bit about complying with the law. Very dangerous, that.

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Last edited by River on Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:37 pm 
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Lets talk reality here.

If you have evidence of a crime Hal, please offer it.

Or does the US Constitution and the Election Law not apply to Senator Obama and the people who donate to his campaign?

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:44 pm 
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Hal, you should go read the election fraud thread, the last page,, which discusses an article giving facts about voter fraud--such as, despite determined effort, they were not able to find one case in New Mexico, and the fact that many legitimate voters (including election officials) found out they had been purged. There is clear evidence of improper purging disenfranchising legitimate voters. Do you think this matters?

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More than I've gotten Ellie.


I cherrypick my emails from the Obama campaign asking for money now. Every so often they offer swag with the donation, and I only respond to those ones these days. :D


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:51 pm 
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Primula Baggins wrote:
Quote:
smoke=fire, most of the time


Sorry—the deal in this country is, innocent until proven guilty, all of the time.

There isn't even any smoke; there's no evidence of wrongdoing. If there were, there could and would be an investigation. Lacking that, and given that Obama is complying with the law, there's nothing there.


You may be right. But don't give me the innocent until proven guilty thing in politics. Bush didn't do a damn thing illegal with Iraq, and he's been crucified a thousand times on this board.

Again, why hide it if you've got nothing to hide? Why hasn't Obama released his grades from school? Why hide where your money is coming from? Why hide your relationship with your pastor, with early political advisors? Why hide records of your community orginizer days? Why hide the details of your tax plan from people who can't understand them? Why hide anything at all?

I've obviously gone off track, because I've once again run into a wall of loyalty that is clearly impossible to discuss the issue with. Most of you, would rather let Obama do what he wants based on a technicality he's been able to exploit, rather than know the truth about who all has donated to his campaign.

You are so blinded by your desire to see Obama win, that you don't care about things you SHOULD care about (I'm not talkign about all that stuff I listed, just mostly the contributions thing, and the tax issues). It blows my mind that you all LIKE That he went back on his promise to take public funds, because you just want to see him win.

You don't care he has moved to the right or reversed his position on Iraq, Isreal, Iran, offshore drilling, etc... because you want to see him win at all costs.

I probably shouldn't have posted anything at all today, as it hasn't done anyone any good, and I've just frustrated myself again. It looked there for a bit that some good discussion was happening, and at least one person agreed Obama should be open about the donations... but there literally is a wall there...

Most of you can't accept a POV as at all valid if it threatens to make you think any less of Obama. Almost any opinion I express is going to be along the lines of doing that, as I think he will destroy this country if elected, and it sickens me to see him able to trick smart people into buying his rhetoric that has been carefully crafted to do just that.

Since said opinions are unwanted, I will attempt to remove them again.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:57 pm 
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hal, some of the donations listed on that McCain site that you linked to are listed as "anonymous" or otherwise fail to disclose who they are for. Do you think that is evidence of some kind of wrongdoing? I certainly do not.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:59 pm 
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I don't think they should have been accepted, no.

Do I think it matters in the long run, no.

You know why I think Obama doesn't want to release the records? Because he's afraid there's something there he doesnt' know about... and if there is, he won't be able to deny knowing about it.j

Kind of the same thing most of you are afraid of. Me, I just assume it's there until proven otherwise, I feel much better about it I think.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:03 pm 
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Hal, when you post without using words like Lie and Hate, I enjoy having you here. You make me think.

I think people discussed releasing the records of who contributed and there was concern about privacy. Your response was, "there is no right to privacy." But we responded--saying, in essence, that we think the right to keep your donations private trump the somewhat-prurient need to look at everybody's name, city, employer, and $ amount.

With regard to Obama's grades, I mean, at some point, what becomes so trivial that it doesn't matter? I don't think that Sarah Palin's grades matter, either. Even McCain's, although I know he's gotten some knocks for them.

On the public financing, I don't mind every time a candidate changes his mind. Flip-flopper has become a dirty word, but it can make sense for someone to change their views when new facts come in, or they've considered the matter further. Why stubbornly cling to something, just because you've said it once, a long time ago? When Obama declined to accept public funds, it was because he was concerned that there was no control over party spending and 527 spending. Plus, at the time he talked about taking public funding, he didn't realize what a fundraising phenomenon he was going to be. There are things that you can change your mind about. Of course, there are things that you can't, but being flexible works. You might despise Clinton for it but I wish that W. had been more flexible when it came to the Iraq War--might have moved to correct mistakes much sooner if you could admit that you made them or could see that a changed strategy would be in the best interest.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:11 pm 
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And my response was that when you give the information away, any perceived right you think you have, goes out the window. And yes, I think the people that put together the "right to privacy nonsense" were being... nonsensicle. Sometimes its easier to see things right when you're NOT a constitutional scholar or lawmaker, and when you don't have an agenda you're pushing with your interpretation.

And Obama's grades are not important, the fact he won't release them is... particularly as he has said so emphatically that he worked hard for everything he got... when if his grades were low, it would be obvious that he was helped along at several points. So once again, did he lie, and hide the evidence? Or... um... well, no, I'm pretty sure that's what he did, as there's not really any other reason for hiding your grades. Me, I was pretty proud of mine.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:27 pm 
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THe people that put together the Bill of Rights were coming out a of system where those rights either did not exist or were not enforced.

They didn't like it. I'm not sure I'd like it either, to tell the truth. I don't have anything to hide, but I'm much happier living in a place and time where the police can't just march into my home and ransack the place because they feel like it, where newspapers like The Onion can exist and shows like SNL can exist, where I won't be forced to quarter soldiers in my home, and so on. Sure, there's some danger in having that freedom, but I'm willing to make that trade.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:30 pm 
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None of those freedoms are privacy.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:32 pm 
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This reminds me of a while back when there was that whole "Why won't he release his birth certificate? Is it because he has something to hide?? ... oh, wait, there it is. Nope, looks fine." Darn. Guess we'll have to find something new. How about... "Why won't he release his donations list? Is it because he has something to hide??"

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:37 pm 
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Yeah, it is a lot like that. Maybe if we put enough pressure on him he'll do it this time too. Shame it takes so much work for the voters to get the whole picture on a guy they may elect as President. You'd think the candidate themselves or the media would be happy to pursue this kind of thing.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:45 pm 
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So, your theory of government is that if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to be afraid of?

So, what about the Constitution of the United States of America? What about the Bill of Rights? Are they unnecessary in your opinion?

Well, us Canucks take a different view. We believe in the old English common law: innocent until proven guilty. Safe from search and seizure without a warrant. You know, all those things that millions of men and women have actually died for. Including quite a few Americans.

eta: well, that's it for me in this thread as long as halplm is posting in it. Why is that? Why shouldn't halplm be allowed to post? You will note I am not saying halplm shouldn't be allowed to post, just that I will not aid and abet him in yet another ridiculous fuss and fracas caused once again - yet again and again and again - by his habit of posting innuendo and accusations. If halplm had wanted to discuss why he thinks another man would make a better president than Mr. Obama will, then that would be one thing. But for him to once again, yet again and again and again, simply swan in and start with the same crap? Forget it. It's not debate, it's just infuriating.

He doesn't present an alternative view, just his half-baked suspicions. When he maunders on at such length about "smoke=fire" and "why won't Obama release his grades" and "you don't need any right to privacy" and "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" - then he's crossed that old, invisible line.

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Last edited by vison on Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:46 pm 
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halplm wrote:
And Obama's grades are not important, the fact he won't release them is... particularly as he has said so emphatically that he worked hard for everything he got... when if his grades were low, it would be obvious that he was helped along at several points. So once again, did he lie, and hide the evidence? Or... um... well, no, I'm pretty sure that's what he did, as there's not really any other reason for hiding your grades. Me, I was pretty proud of mine.


Obama graduated Magna Cum Laude from Harvard Law School, meaning he was in the top ten percent of arguably the hardest, most competitive school of any kind in the country (please don't tell nel I said that ;)).

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:52 pm 
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Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:
halplm wrote:
And Obama's grades are not important, the fact he won't release them is... particularly as he has said so emphatically that he worked hard for everything he got... when if his grades were low, it would be obvious that he was helped along at several points. So once again, did he lie, and hide the evidence? Or... um... well, no, I'm pretty sure that's what he did, as there's not really any other reason for hiding your grades. Me, I was pretty proud of mine.


Obama graduated Magna Cum Laude from Harvard Law School, meaning he was in the top ten percent of arguably the hardest, most competitive school of any kind in the country (please don't tell nel I said that ;)).


Sure, but how did he get in?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:56 pm 
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I imagine he mailed in an application that included his transcripts, his test scores, and his letters of rec. And then he showed he deserved his offer of admission by graduating on time with high honors.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:56 pm 
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from Hal

Quote:
I've obviously gone off track, because I've once again run into a wall of loyalty that is clearly impossible to discuss the issue with.


Not at all Hal. The issue you brought up was discussed many ways and from many people. There is no wall of loyalty. There is however the US Constitution, Federal Election Law, and certain procedures that are sacrosanct in the accusation of illegality. You failed to get around those walls.

You do have a habit of claiming that people do not hear you.... or do not listen to you ... or refuse to debate you ... or will not discuss your issues when what is actually happening is that people do hear you. They do listen to you. They do debate you. And they do discuss your issues.

What you refuse to accept is that after doing these things, they find your points and reasoning wanting and reject your arguments. Maybe it is easier on your ego to claim that you are not heard instead of accepting that your points have been rejected after discussion.

I do admire how you sometimes stand alone here against far superior numbers and still hold your ground. That is a good thing and I hope you continue.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:01 pm 
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River wrote:
I imagine he mailed in an application that included his transcripts, his test scores, and his letters of rec. And then he showed he deserved his offer of admission by graduating on time with high honors.


Did he? How do you know that? If it's true, why would he hide his grades? Given he's hiding his grades, isn't it more likely that he got into Harvard by knowing the right people? Oh, and lets not forget he's black, which gives him a leg up on white people. But I'm sure it was just the hard work... of which we have no evidence...


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:05 pm 
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It's funny, SF. At least one person DID hear me, and did recognize that what Obama was doign made no sense. Another engaged in the discussion with the fact that McCain should be held to the same standard if my point was to be valid, which I agreed with.

YOU did not engage me, and still haven't. You refuse my basic premise that Obama could do anything wrong, and argue side issues and technicalities, and still haven't ever answered the question.

Or, you've answered it in a way that says you support massive fraud and bought elections, which I don't believe for a moment.

That's the wall I was talking about. So you can twist things around to try and belittle me all you like, but those are the facts.


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