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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:19 am 
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Feeling grateful
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Thanks for clarifying, Faramond.

Regarding Day, no I certainly don't believe that I know everything about him. But for me, branding a good man a "traitor" because he came to oppose a horrible, unnecessary war in which our troops engaged in some horrible acts, and helping to propagate a series of lies about that man is enough. In 2004, John McCain was quick to come to John Kerry's defense. In 2008, Barack Obama was just as quick to come to John McCain when Wes Clark made his somewhat disparaging (but certainly nowhere near as the level of the comments of Day and others about Kerry) remarks about McCain's service.

Regarding the media coverage of Obama, Fox News ran those clips of Wright endlessly. I stand by that word. They reported on false reports of things like Obama refusing to say the pledge of allegiance and being sworn into office on the Koran as if they were real news. Just within the past month, they reported on the "fist bump" that he and his wife exchanged as a "terrorist" sign. They called Michelle Obama his "baby mama". And many other examples of grossly false and negative portrayals.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:51 am 
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I don't watch Fox News. They are one channel, whose audience, though large, is dwarfed by the rest of broadcast and cable news, and by print news as well.

McCain isn't using Day to attack anyone. He hasn't withdrawn his support for Kerry because Day is helping McCain out. Whatever the hell happened to nuance? I guess McCain is only allowed to associate with saints, while anyone Obama cares to associate will have excuses made for them. As you can see, this makes me really cranky, and I make generalizations that I am sure you can counter.

And I've already seen what your attitude toward US troops is in another thread, so I think I should end that part of the convo like I ended the other one. Unfortunately I find your attitude --- well, I really really don't like it. So I should try to avoid military discussions with you.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:02 am 
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Faramond wrote:
One of these days I'm going to snap, and go out there and find every bad thing on both McCain and Obama and their associates that I can, and prove that both candidates are beyond redemption, that both are evil scum-sucking dishonorable jackasses.


That won't take long.

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For the TROUBLED may you find PEACE
For the DESPAIRING may you find HOPE
For the LONELY may you find LOVE
For the SKEPTICAL may you find FAITH
-Frances C. Arrillaga 1941-1995


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:12 am 
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Neither of them are those things.

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“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:43 am 
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Won't say that to read some of the remarks made about both, or to witness the glee with which "mistakes" made by either are pounced on, or the amount of snark employed in discussions, and so on and so forth.

You know what? This every four years election thing? I don't think I'm gonna make it :P I'll have to have a year of radio silence every four, just to keep my sanity! And to ensure that I don't turn a particularly unpleasant shade of jade ;)


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:52 am 
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My opinion of both men has only gone down in the last few months.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:57 am 
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not something I would recommend
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I get the feeling that it's not possible for impressions to go up during a campaign.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:05 am 
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Faramond wrote:
And I've already seen what your attitude toward US troops is in another thread, so I think I should end that part of the convo like I ended the other one. Unfortunately I find your attitude --- well, I really really don't like it. So I should try to avoid military discussions with you.


Faramond, I am not anti-soldier, despite what you think. Unfortunately, I'm convinced that anything further that I say is just going to exacerbate you mistaken impression, so I reluctantly am going to leave it be.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:09 am 
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I will accept your statement at face value, and leave the rest of any disagreements we have on this buried here. I wish I had not been so harsh earlier.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:21 am 
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I appreciate that. :hug:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:55 pm 
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halplm wrote:
Faramond wrote:
One of these days I'm going to snap, and go out there and find every bad thing on both McCain and Obama and their associates that I can, and prove that both candidates are beyond redemption, that both are evil scum-sucking dishonorable jackasses.


That won't take long.


I find it sadly ironic that these sorts of statements are being made in a campaign where the actual candidates are vocally (and sincerely, I believe) being respectful of one another.

People can disagree on issues without demonizing one another. Their supporters can both want what's best for the country -- and think their candidate is the right man for the job -- without assuming anyone who disagrees sucks scum.

Arguments like this are making me weary of this campaign. When I hear direct remarks from the candidates, I'm uplifted. It's this nasty undercurrent that tugs away my hope.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:23 pm 
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I agree. I think this is the most encouraging election I've seen in my political lifetime due to quality of both candidates. I strongly prefer that Obama win, but while McCain has set off a couple of red flags, at this point I wouldn't view a McCain victory with the nearly the sense of despair that both of Bush's provoked.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:57 pm 
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It is almost impossible to engage in any discussion about the election, even in otherwise civil company, and not have that nasty undercurrent present. It sucks away my respect for people to see the bickering and mudslinging, the smugness and sense of superiority, the underhanded slinging of little barbs, and all the other ugly human characteristics float to the top as people sound off ( on the opposition candidate ). It is as if politics bring the ugly in people out more than any other topic does. :scratch:


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:11 pm 
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Griffon64 wrote:
It is as if politics bring the ugly in people out more than any other topic does.


Don't forget religion. If you want to see things get real nasty, try discussing both at the same time.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:30 pm 
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God wants Obama to win.

How's that, Dave_LF?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:32 pm 
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I think civil conversation about both is possible, and I've seen it happen right here (and in our religion forum).

However, feelings are beginning to run high on all sides; I know mine are. I'm going to try to keep my posts factual and steer away from emotional points.

The other thing I'm going to try to do is to make no assumptions about the motivations for other people's posts. In this atmosphere it is so easy to misread tone. An attempt at restraint can look like flippancy, an attempt to be generous like being patronizing, an attempt to be emphatic like anger.

Above all, I am not going to assume (I never have assumed) that the candidate I don't support is unworthy, or that people who support him think my candidate is unworthy. I'm going to assume that everyone here has well-thought-out reasons for the choice they've made.

Having achieved perfection, I will then be borne off to Paradise in a fiery chariot. Watch this space.

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“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:37 pm 
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Gee, vison, anything a god wants, a god gets. So whoever wins, God must have either wanted it, or was indifferent.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:20 pm 
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Maria wrote:
Gee, vison, anything a god wants, a god gets. So whoever wins, God must have either wanted it, or was indifferent.
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:16 pm 
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Just for completeness' sake, I should point out that Rutherford Hayes, James Garfield and Benjamin Harrison were generals in the Civil War, although they weren't 'career' soldiers, and Teddy Roosevelt was elected New York governor and then Veep largely on his 'war hero' status. (During the same period Democratic tickets were headed by generals George McClellan and Winfield Scott Hancock, both West Pointers and career officers).

Nonetheless, it's true that neither major party has nominated a general this century besides Eisenhower. On the other hand, only one President since Ike has not done at least nominal miltary service (Clinton), although that service in some cases was more illusory than real (LBJ, Reagan, Bush Jr).


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:30 pm 
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Quote:
But for me, branding a good man a "traitor" because he came to oppose a horrible, unnecessary war in which our troops engaged in some horrible acts, and helping to propagate a series of lies about that man is enough.


It wasn't merely 'opposing' the war that Day assailed, Vor: it was Kerry's irresponsible and dishonest slandering of the honorable men who fought in it. Leaving the whole issue of Kerry's medals aside, his so-called testimony before the Senate was, to many Vietnam vets, an unforgivable sin.


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