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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:54 pm 
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There is currently another first-page thread called "The Kindergarchy". I move that we officially drop the "representative democracy" pretense and register as the world's first Kindergarchy.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:44 pm 
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It is a reason to not vote for McCain, but I'm not sure it qualifies as a reason to vote for Obama.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:01 pm 
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The Obama campaign better have the video of McCain's remark, then. I don't think Mr. McCain meant that Mrs. Clinton is a pig. It was an unfortunate comment.

Of course Obama didn't mean Mrs. Palin is a pig.

She's not a pig, anyway.

She's a female pitbull, self-described.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:08 pm 
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I don't think this will hurt Obama. In the twisted world of American politics it may even help him, by convincing people that he is "tough enough" to play dirty.

In any event, it is just another mountain out of mole hill. Both sides do it. It's like the plane not selling on e-bay, or the Palin's (relatively inconsequential) per diems used when she was home, or for her family's travel. To me (I'm just expressing my opinon here), these things aren't even worth talking about. This is the type of thing that I think is worth talking about:

Obama to GOP: "Don't mock the constitution."

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:11 pm 
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What makes me wonder about things is this....she says she's a pitbull with lipstick, but heaven forbid if the kid gloves come off. What happens if Biden doesn't pull his punches during the debate? Will McCain call Biden a sexist for not pulling his punches thus 'rescuing the little lady' from the big bad Democrate VP canidate?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:15 pm 
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Of course Biden will be criticized. He picked on this cute woman who is a hockey mom and future gramdma. Its a no win situation the Reps are trying to create. Which means he should crush her with such force that there is nothing left to even defend. Anything in between is not good.

Vornowe - that is an interesting clip of Obma right here in Michigan. But here is the sad bottom line. The clip you posted has 78 views so far.

The Republican lipstick commercial lying about Obama on Palin has over 266 thousand in just hours.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:17 pm 
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Voronwë is right, but he's also wrong.

The crap people are arguing about IS inconsequential. But, Voronwë, it's what people LIKE to fight about. They don't want to hear big words like "constitution". They want to hear little stupid words like "lipstick" and "pig" and get all offended.

YOU, as an intelligent and concerned citizen, might care about the consitution, but sadly and truthfully, an awful lot of people don't.

And I was mistaken about the amount of per diems, as such. It was paying the chef that brought the amount up to over $60,000.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:17 pm 
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Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:
I don't think this will hurt Obama. In the twisted world of American politics it may even help him, by convincing people that he is "tough enough" to play dirty.

In any event, it is just another mountain out of mole hill. Both sides do it. It's like the plane not selling on e-bay, or the Palin's (relatively inconsequential) per diems used when she was home, or for her family's travel. To me (I'm just expressing my opinon here), these things aren't even worth talking about. This is the type of thing that I think is worth talking about:

Obama to GOP: "Don't mock the constitution."


Voronwë,

As a government worker the per diem issue intrests me, simply because if I had pulled this where I am at, the Mayor and City Council would have me out on my rear end so fast it would make my head spin. And if one of our elected officals even tried this type of pay for me to drive or fly into work once, they would be out on the rear ends as fast as the paper could say re-call election. And if anyone in the local or county government even so much as asked for family to be flown or get hotel rooms on the tax dime there would be a fraud investigation.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:33 pm 
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Here's an interesting tidbit I just learned.

Lifelong NRA member and hunter Palin has a PETA member as a speech writer. Matthew Scully is one of the country's most vociferous gun grabbers. He wrote Dominion, hailed by PETA as their 2003 Book of the Year. He's an animal rights and vegan activist.

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-- Samuel Adams


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:26 pm 
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Michigans own Governor Jennifer Granholm has voluntered her services as the stand in for Sarah Palin to Joseph Biden. Apparently, Granholm would play the role of Palin so that Biden can figure out the best way to debate with a woman.

Granholm was once considered as the most attractive governor in America, until Sarah Palin that is. She is smart and intellectually smart. But here style and Palin are very different.

It will be interesting to see if Biden takes her up on the offer.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:26 pm 
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The Obama camp is failing miserably with managing the press.

link

They're trying to redirect to the McCain camp, saying it's all nonsense, which is true. But someone should have been able to point out to Obama that mentioning the word "lipstick" would bring Palin to mind instantly for anyone who saw her speach. And if he ad libbed the analogy, then it was an ameteur mistake.

Right now, the Dems look weak, lost, and disorganized. They are off message, and trying to find a safe way to attack back, but the republicans are hitting them on everything.

I think it's all fair game, given how the media has gone after Palin on anything they could, but I think Obama has lost any chance of being able to claim the "high road."

This thing is 100% negative for the rest of its life... it's going to get painful to watch.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:28 pm 
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Hal - so which is it please? Select one option:

The news media is biased in favor of Obama and bends over backwards to make him look good.

Obama is failing miserably in managing the press.

The two are mutually exclusive.

Quote:
I think it's all fair game,


What are you speaking about? What is fair game?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:39 pm 
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The media is biased in favor of Obama and wants him elected, for the most part.

Obama is failing miserably in managing the press which should be easy given the above comment, but he's making bad statements, and then blaming the press for making something of nothing, and giving the McCain camp ways of attack. The small portion of the media that is not locked up for Obama, reports the obvious story, and the rest of the media is forced to pick it up as well.

So they are not mutually exclusive. It's worse that Obama is failing with the media, because he just has to avoid stupid mistakes and they'll spin it all his way.

"it's all fair game" is anything that comes out of Obama or Biden's mouth, or McCain and Palin's mouth. The personal attacks on Palin and her family, the digging into her former pastors religious beliefs, and trying to scare people with them.. etc etc...

It's all fair game now, nothing is off limits. We're going to see some nasty ads.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:41 pm 
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So you want it both ways? :scratch:

And what "bad statements " did Obama make?

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:47 pm 
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Can you link to Obama or Biden's personal attacks on Palin and her family, and to their digging into her former pastor's religious beliefs? Thanks.

Let's keep this discussion rational and try to limit ourselves to things that have actually happened and actually been said. Links to video of candidates' words or to major news outlets quoting them are always useful for that.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:52 pm 
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vison wrote:
The Obama campaign better have the video of McCain's ["lipstick on a pig"] remark, then. I don't think Mr. McCain meant that Mrs. Clinton is a pig. It was an unfortunate comment.

I don't have audio on this computer, so I am trusting from the description that McCain's comment can be viewed > here on youtube<. (If not, let me know, and I'll delete the link.) I see nothing wrong with either McCain or Obama using the line, which predates the 2008 campaign.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:00 pm 
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N.E.B, the link works fine. I agree that there is nothing wrong with either Obama or McCain using the line, and that the McCain camp is being extraordinarily cynical in attacking Obama on this issue.

sf wrote:
Vornowe - that is an interesting clip of Obma right here in Michigan. But here is the sad bottom line. The clip you posted has 78 views so far.

The Republican lipstick commercial lying about Obama on Palin has over 266 thousand in just hours.


vison wrote:
Voronwë is right, but he's also wrong.

The crap people are arguing about IS inconsequential. But, Voronwë, it's what people LIKE to fight about. They don't want to hear big words like "constitution". They want to hear little stupid words like "lipstick" and "pig" and get all offended.

YOU, as an intelligent and concerned citizen, might care about the consitution, but sadly and truthfully, an awful lot of people don't.


I would really like to disagree with you, vison. But the statistics that sf point to speak for themselves. :(

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:09 pm 
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Voronwë, I searched on "Obama Farmington" and found three other postings of that video with over 9,000 views total, and I expect there are more I didn't find with that search. People put things up multiple times and don't always use the same keywords.

And, this only happened yesterday.

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“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:13 pm 
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Fear and loathing of women makes heads explode across the political spectrum

Arthur Silber wrote:
I have to confess that Hillary Clinton always held a certain attraction for me. I thoroughly enjoyed the presence of a strong woman in national politics, and I liked the fact that she fought back with everything she had. To put it in popular parlance: This woman wouldn’t take shit from anyone. I liked that a lot. But most of all, I loved the reaction she provoked from conservatives. She did indeed make their heads explode. Conservatives were completely undone by Hillary Clinton. All their notions of ‘femininity’ and about how women should ‘properly’ behave were tossed aside. Hillary Clinton would have none of that. She made them close to clinically insane. For a great many conservatives, the primal cry arose: ‘Kill That Woman!’ And still she survived, and went on to become a Senator — and almost the Democratic presidential nominee. They couldn’t kill her. They never will. I like that. A lot. Can’t stand her politics, but I love that aspect of her. That brings us to Sarah Palin. Again, I can’t stand the woman’s politics. But the spectacle that is unfolding is simply extraordinary. Not just heads are exploding, but entire solar systems. And this time, the explosions are on the liberal side.


He likes Sarah Palin's politics as little as he likes Hillary Clinton's politics, but he finds that the attacks on SP are pretty identical to the attacks on HRC in pathos ... and source.

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"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams


Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:14 pm 
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That's good to know, Prim. Thanks. Still, it doesn't compare to the "266 thousand in just hours" that sf cites for the McCain commercial about Obama supposedly calling Palin a pig.

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