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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:22 pm 
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I thought I was logged in (actually I didn't think I could post without being logged in), and that should read 'Christina' of course, not Christins.

Nor should Morgoth poisoned the trees be quoted (since '... before Morgoth poisoned them' is the actual wording) but I assume that is not confusing.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:02 pm 
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Hi Galin! Great to see you here! This forum (alone among those at the Hall of Fire) is an "open forum" that does not require a membership to post. Although one advantage of posting as a member is that you can go back and edit your posts. :) (We couldn't allow guests to edit posts because that would create a situation where anyone could edit anyone else's posts.

(People posting as guests can still enter their own name, or a user name, rather than posting as "Guest".)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:45 am 
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Ah, I see (regarding the posting) :)

Just my opinion, but I would have noted RGEO and WPP on Calacirya(n) -- or if only one, RGEO probably, as it nicely explains the difference between Calacirya and Calaciryan(de)

As I think I understand it! Mr. Hostetter would be the person to ask obviously. In any case I think you already agree that CJRT's usage is in accord with RGEO (not that the WPP entry represents a variant idea) and I only mention it as I recently noted your entry.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:55 am 
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I might as well, in one or the other thread (which have become increasingly tangled) my own criticisms of the 1977 text which go beyond nitpicks. On the whole I agree with most of CT's decisions- I don't favor everything-but-the-kitchen-sink inclusionism. I also think that Tolkien was a different writer in the late 50s than he was during his 'golden period', roughly the era of Notion Club, Return of the King, the new Lay of Leithian, Ainulindalë C and D, the long Tuor, Akallabêth and, especially, the Annals. The Tolkien of LQ2 and the Wanderings of Húrin, of the Athrabeth and Aldarion and Erendis, was less elegant, less sure of the fall and shimmer of his prose, while at the same time more psychologically perceptive, more 'novelistic' in his sensibilities.

In other words, the Annals, supplemented by LQ1, provide a harmonious and clarion wonder of style, consistent from the beginning through the death of Túrin, and these were and ought to have been the principal texts insofar as possible.

However:

I regret the letdown of reaching the Fall of Gondolin, that symbol and icon all the way back to The Hobbit, and finding the account so brief and distant. Of the Great Tales, Eärendil was never written and the old Nauglafring unusable; but the old FG combined with the new account of Tuor's journeying (with a complete overhaul not only of obsolete concepts but that William Morris-y Lost Tales style) could and perhaps should have been undertaken.

I would have liked a headnote or title page associating the work with Translations from the Elvish (oddly, I assumed from the very first that that was what The Silmarillion was)

I would choose, for the Feanorian Oath, neither the Annals text used nor LQ2, but the verse version from the abortive Fall of the Noldor. But if that's out, I actually prefer AAm to LQ2.


A *little* bit more of Finwë and Míriel, which is new material not found before and which contains some nice lines- but *not* the whole darn thing, which is rather more deserving of the critics' Leviticene accusations than Tolkien's prose usually is. It's (mostly) turgid and legalistic, and at full length stops the momentum dead in its tracks.



Radically, I would have included the Athrabeth, *not* as an appendix, but actually in the main text in its chronological place just before the Bragollach. - and included the introductory 'once upon a time' paragraph. An intruded vignette, and odd philosophical dialogue, a reflective pause just before everything starts falling apart, so we feel what's at stake and being lost, and perhaps added piquancy to Beren & Lúthien two chapters later. (I know, CT would never, ever have done this).


But, all that aside, I find the 1977 text to be one of amazing power and beauty, even if it is 'artificial' (personally, I find the image of dying Thingol gazing with his last sight upon the Light of the Trees in the Silmaril to be wonderful, even if it is completely 'fake.') And, with HME, CT has let us have our cake and eat it too- how cool is that?


Last edited by solicitr on Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:55 am 
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Yes, I agree. I might expand the note in the errata page, but I certainly will do so if I ever get a chance to produce a revised edition.

Edit: Needless to say, I was responding to Galin, not solicitr.

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 Post subject: Calacirya
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:24 am 
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Calacirya is the form that appears most frequently in The Lord of the Rings (three times, twice in Galadriel's Lament and once in the index). It seems plain to me that Christopher was simply bringing the form of this name into line with that of LotR, as he did with many other names.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:00 am 
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Thanks. That seems rather obvious now. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:17 am 
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Mine is here! :read:

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 Post subject: Re: Calacirya
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:29 pm 
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Aelfwine wrote:
Calacirya is the form that appears most frequently in The Lord of the Rings (three times, twice in Galadriel's Lament and once in the index). It seems plain to me that Christopher was simply bringing the form of this name into line with that of LotR, as he did with many other names.


Ah, even simpler and better, thank you. Under 'Places' in the index, one of my editions has Calacirian and Calaciryo, and I thought an 'exact match' might just be simpler to raise (despite that one is anglicized from kalakiryande, and the other is in the genitive, as obviously you know). But I stoopidly rushed on to RGEO without remembering the English right there with Calaciryo too of course (includes 'of Calacirya' anyway), on the same page.

To Voronwë

I expect arguments for CJRT's choice with respect to The Darkening of Valinor will be much better presented by others (people other than me I mean), so for now, harping on this particular string again...

Given that JRRT (basically) wrote two versions, one in which Melkor is with Ungoliant at the slaying, and one in which he waits for her alone to destroy the Trees (then goes to the Ring of Doom), if you were forced to choose which version is more likely in play with respect to the admittedly brief wording in Unfinished Tales, which one would you choose?

Even though this is a partly illegible text -- which CJRT undertook to represent the meaning for readers of Unfinished Tales -- I think the wording would be notable given the long external history here, as I assume it reflects the wording of the original. Though I guess one might raise the issue of Tolkien's memory possibly being a factor too. I have to admit I sometimes wonder about that with respect to this late adumbrated tale, considering what it relates about Galadriel compared to the already published statements in RGEO.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:39 pm 
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Galin, I'm surprised that you considered the UT passage to be more significant that the LOTR Appendix A passages, particularly the one that was added in to the second edition. The UT passage is incredibly vague. All it says is that Galadriel and Celeborn "were about to seek leave from the Valar for their venture when Melkor fled from Valmar and returning with Ungoliant destroyed the light of the Trees." I don't really think this vague statement points very closely to either version. Of course, as you have pointed out, we don't know what the fragmentary note even says; this is simply Christopher's description of it. Nor do we have any idea whether Christopher was even aware of this text at the time that he worked on the Silmarillion. In contrast, we certainly know that he was well familiar with the text of LOTR, and we know for sure exactly what Tolkien wrote there. Of course, the statements there aren't any less vague than the one in the UT text, but I still think that it is more likely that Christopher used the LQ text rather than the Annals text in order to not contradict what is said in LOTR than because of the UT passage (even though, as I said before, one of the LOTR passages is contradicted by either version of the Darkening.

That having been said, there are certainly other parts of the published Silmarillion that contradict the text of LOTR in much more blatant ways. The most obvious example is the statement in Of the Rings of Power that Frodo tossed the Ring into the Fire, which Christopher had to have noticed conflicted with the account in RotK, but still did not change. I don't really see that as a compelling reason for using the Annals text instead of the LQ text which is not only more recent, but also (in my opinion, of course) much more interesting overall (not so much because it is Ungoliant alone who destroys the Trees, but also in all of the other details, as I describe in the book).

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:59 pm 
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I never wondered about that point (Frodo throwing in the Ring) because I assumed that that bit of history was drawn from an account written by (or a story told by) Samwise, who out of loyalty might have phrased things very carefully.

Even if not, there is a tendency to simplify complicated points if they're peripheral to the history, and the fact is that Frodo did take the Ring to the Fire and it did go in. And, one could argue, as a consequence of his actions. The event gets only the barest mention, so I was not surprised to see the chain of events simplified. Even if the effect was to grant Frodo a heroism he didn't show at that one critical moment.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:19 pm 
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Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:
Galin, I'm surprised that you considered the UT passage to be more significant that the LOTR Appendix A passages, particularly the one that was added in to the second edition.


I already know or can guess your response concerning the other three, but you didn't seem to say anything about the particular wording in UT.

Quote:
The UT passage is incredibly vague. All it says is that Galadriel and Celeborn "were about to seek leave from the Valar for their venture when Melkor fled from Valmar and returning with Ungoliant destroyed the light of the Trees." I don't really think this vague statement points very closely to either version.


Hmmm, to me this more easily suggests that Morgoth returned to Valmar with Ungoliant and destroyed the Trees -- implying he was at least present if not the 'principle destroyer.' Don't we have to do a little more to explain that this really refers to Ungoliant leaving Melkor to destroy the Trees herself -- and that he only returned to Valmar 'with' Ungoliant and detroyed the Trees in the sense that he returned later and had her destroy the Trees (and he desecrated the Ring of Doom).

Maybe I'm splitting hairs here :)

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(...) That having been said, there are certainly other parts of the published Silmarillion that contradict the text of LOTR in much more blatant ways. The most obvious example is the statement in Of the Rings of Power that Frodo tossed the Ring into the Fire, which Christopher had to have noticed conflicted with the account in RotK, but still did not change. (...)


Just as an aside, I read that as a 'purposed contradiction' from JRRT himself, to my mind intended to read as it does due to its source, and the amount of compression of that source.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:34 pm 
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Woohoo. :D

I suspect, in fact I am convinced, that this package was sitting on the top shelf of the post office for weeks. When you get a parcel, you usually get a card telling you that you have it. I didn't get a card, but I asked nearly every time I was at the post office, or if the kids went (they usually do) I got them to ask.

I guess Linda got tired of being asked because today when I was in there I asked her to please check again and lo and behold, she found it. She seemed surprised, which is fine, she may not have been the one who put it up there, it might have been the relief postmistress.

So then it took T about an hour to open it. Voronwë had REALLY wrapped it. No knife in the car, so it was peel the tape off. T knew I'd be upset if he opened it in such a way as to rip the dust cover, so he was really careful.

I will probably read it through tonight, but right now I have to get dinner started, we have an early baseball practice.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:28 pm 
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:woohoo: Mine's finally here!

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:14 pm 
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Great! I look forward to hearing more about you think of it, once you have had a chance to check it out some more!

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:37 pm 
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Well, I read the first couple of chapters, and already you've got me determined to get hold of the relevant HoMe volumes for the SIL.

As I mentioned before I gave up at about volume 3 because I wasn't interested in reading 10 versions of the same passage from LotR! However, the SIL is a diffeent matter entirely. Just from your first two chapters I am amazed at what CT omitted - to his own regret - and I'm now hungry for all the First Age material Tolkien can give me. :read:

btw, does Breogan have any plans to publish her gorgeous paintings in colour? I'd particularly like to see the birth of the sun and the moon, and the Yavanna portait in glorious technicolour :)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:24 pm 
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Elen, I believe (and hope) that that is in the works, and that she will be selling prints of them. I will mention to her that you expressed interest.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:29 pm 
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My copy arrived today. 8) I've only got time for a quick glance, but it looks great, and I'll concentrate on it more properly next weekend.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:06 pm 
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I split off the little side discussion about Winged Balrogs and other minor changes to a separate thread

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 Post subject: Got Mine!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:55 pm 
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Hail Hall of Fire - thanks to the efforts of the author himself I have received my copy of AR! This I am happy to say is my first post to the Hall of Fire. I am busy absorbing this great work and hope to post questions, thoughts here.

I do have one niggling question (that has been niggling for some time!) - did Tolkien keep a private diary and if so will it ever see the light of day?

More to come - happy to be here with fellow Tolkienists.

Best, Andy

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