It is currently Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:32 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 145 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:18 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 32720
Pretty neat!

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:47 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 32720
Nobody else took a look at that review? It's worth watching, I think. An interesting perspective, to be sure.

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:54 pm 
Offline
of Vinyamar
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:39 pm
Posts: 7913
Location: Ireland
I did. Liked the comparison too.

_________________
Image
The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:21 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 32720
Me too. It's one that I never considered before. In fact, I don't think I even knew that Anne Frank's father edited the papers that she left.

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:46 pm 
Offline
Living in hope
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:43 am
Posts: 38663
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
Just watched it (done with work already! :D ) That was interesting. Of course a fine review of your book, but also an interesting connection to Anne Frank. I hadn't known that she herself was in the process of rewriting and editing her diary when she was so tragically interrupted.

I did know that her father edited the diary before it was published, removing some material vaguely related to sex and some frank assessments of family strife. There's been a complete version published since his death, although given the state of the papers when found, it may be more of a different interpretation than a complete restoration.

What pleased me about the review is this: the sense I'm getting that your book is being seen more and more as an indispensable tool for students and scholars of the Silmarillion. "What does it say about that in Kane?" :)

_________________
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:59 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 32720
I see that the review that was in Mythprint is now online at the Mythopoeic Society webpage if anyone is interested in watching it.

http://www.mythsoc.org/reviews/arda-reconstructed-ordway/

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:24 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 32720
Not really a review, per se, but some fairly extensive comments on the book in the upcoming Tolkien Studies, Volume 9 in "The Year’s Work in Tolkien Studies 2009" by David Bratman and Merlin DeTardo.

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/tolkien_st ... tks.9.html

In the introduction, they write:

Quote:
Of book-length monographs of the year, the most attention has gone to Christopher Tolkien’s edition of the previously unpublished, and indeed previously almost unknown, Legend of Sigurd and Gudrún. Among secondary scholarly studies, there has been much interest in and some contention over the portrait of Christopher Tolkien as an editor in Arda Reconstructed: The Creation of the Published Silmarillion by Douglas Charles Kane, an attempt to put in narrative form a lengthy and thorough table tracing the sources in The History of Middle-earth texts of the work published as The Silmarillion in 1977. Other noted books of the year ...


I was surprised and please to see them list it first about secondary scholarly studies of the year, and it certainly is accurate that it causes some contention!

In the section on "Works by Tolkien" (written by David Bratman), there is a brief reference to the book in the discussion of the critical attention to Legend of Sigurd and Gudrún:

Quote:
“Tolkien’s Sigurd & Gudrun: Summary, Sources, & Analogs” by Pierre H. Berube (Mythlore 28 no. 1/2: 45-76) is a useful table, rather akin to the ones for The Silmarillion in Kane’s Arda Reconstructed (discussed below) identifying which source texts Tolkien used for individual sections of his two lays, including citations of elements he rejected; plotting and thematic analogs in his own fiction; and most prominently a detailed and fairly sardonic plot summary, divided into chunks covering a few stanzas each.


The main comments about the book open the section "General Criticism: Other Works" (written by Merlin DeTardo):

Quote:
Arda Reconstructed: The Creation of the Published Silmarillion by Douglas Charles Kane (Bethlehem, PA: Lehigh University Press, 2009) is a valuable work of reference. Kane closely compares The Silmarillion, as edited for publication in 1977 by Christopher Tolkien (with assistance from Guy Gavriel Kay) to the inconsistent “Silmarillion” manuscripts published in (mainly) The History of Middle-earth series. With the caveat (which might be expressed more strongly) that even those apparent sources are themselves edited and incomplete, Kane discusses in turn each of the 28 chapters in The Silmarillion. He includes tables that identify every paragraph’s principal and supplementary sources for all but five chapters (where Christopher Tolkien had already performed a similar analysis, or for which no sources can be traced). With Kane’s work as a guide, no researcher examining The Silmarillion with reference to Tolkien’s motives or his other works should again be daunted from the necessary task of checking against the relevant history. Doggedly, skillfully, Kane shows that most of the words in The Silmarillion are those of J.R.R. Tolkien, while much of their arrangement, at all levels, is editorial. Working mainly from 1950s historical annals associated with the “Quenta Silmarillion,” but reaching back to the 1910s “Lost Tales,” Christopher Tolkien spliced chapters, paragraphs, and even sentences; Kane explicates one paragraph that has been combined from six different sources (76). In all, he finds The Silmarillion is assembled from more than 20 texts. The only chapter whose words are not primarily J.R.R. Tolkien’s is “Of the Ruin of Doriath,” where the last version completed dates from 1930 and disagrees with later “Silmarillion” developments. This has been known since the 1994 publication of The War of the Jewels, where Christopher Tolkien says (356) he was “overstepping the bounds of the editorial function” (Kane tends to repeat himself and cites this phrase three times). However, as Kane acknowledges, this pastiche is quite skillful, and the description of Thingol’s death in particular has been widely praised—but usually as the work of J.R.R. Tolkien (see Verlyn Flieger’s Splintered Light and Brian Rosebury’s Tolkien: A Cultural Phenomenon, in addition to, as Kane notes [216], Tom Shippey’s The Road to Middle-earth). Kane’s evaluation of the constructed Silmarillion is less rigorous than his source-tracing. By seldom questioning the work’s large structure, he implicitly endorses the text; his chief complaints, summarized in a concluding chapter, are that it is edited too much for the sake of consistency, condensation, and literary convention, thus omitting philosophic passages (particularly the Second Prophecy of Mandos and the “Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth”), lively details, and a needed framing structure; he also bemoans the reduction in the already limited role of female characters. Apart from the last point (which is unsystematically considered) these are reasonable conclusions to which Kane responds mainly with astonishment, expressing too little consideration for Christopher Tolkien’s uncertainty (mentioned repeatedly in The History of Middle-earth) as to the scope and purpose of the posthumous editing of his father’s texts and for the sheer difficulty of interpreting them.


Overall, I thought these comments were quite fair, and frankly more extensive than I expected, and I will pass over the few minor quibbles that I have silently.

One final reference to the book immediately followed that paragraph, in the same section:

Quote:
Michaël Devaux cites Kane’s work in “Dagor Dagorath and Ragnarök: Tolkien and the Apocalypse” (translated from French by David Ledanois in Hither Shore 6: 102-17), an attempt to make sense of Tolkien’s comment (Letters 149) that the “Silmarillion” mythology would conclude in a final battle that was indebted to and yet not particularly like the old Norse tradition of Ragnarök. Examining Tolkien’s changing schatological conceptions as presented in The History of Middle-earth volumes (like Elizabeth Whittingham’s book, The Evolution of Tolkien’s Mythology), Devaux finds Tolkien reducing the role of the Valar as the story becomes less like Ragnarök and more like the Christian
Apocalypse. He also identifies apocalyptic imagery used earlier in The Silmarillion narrative.


I was unaware of this citation to my book, and will certainly seek out that paper.

I'll also mention that another paper in the new issue of Tolkien Studies, Amelia A. Rutledge's fascinating and very worthwhile “Justice is not Healing”: J. R. R. Tolkien’s Pauline Constructs in “Finwë and Míriel” also cites Arda Reconstructed (as does the paper that immediately precedes it, but that is my own "Law and Arda").

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:43 pm 
Offline
Living in hope
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:43 am
Posts: 38663
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
I enjoy seeing the scholarly side of you through other Tolkien scholars' eyes (especially because when I first knew you, this side of you didn't exist, except in unconnected but fascinating posts on TORC).

It still makes me happy to contemplate the progression of Arda Reconstructed from a Hall of Fire thread, to publication, to becoming a "valuable work of reference" well known in the Tolkien world. The patience and persistence with which you made it happen are (literally) an inspiration to me.

_________________
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:11 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:31 pm
Posts: 3154
First, I greatly enjoyed this book. My Silmarillion would have been different than Christopher Tolkien's, and different from Voronwë's, but having the raw material to explore the multitude of Silmarillions that could have, and may yet, exist, is invaluable.

Secondly, a question: Has there been any indication that Christopher Tolkien has noticed the publication of Arda Reconstructed, and if so, has his opinion been made known?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:25 am
Posts: 45
I have been slowly (possibly slower than any book that I have ever read before) working my way through Douglas Kane's work, and I have to admit I am thoroughly fascinated by it. The scholarship involved is meticulous, and admirable for that.

Hats off! :)

Yet as I progress through this book (this enjoyable book) I do find myself asking what is its purpose. I'm not sure what its aims are, except to show that Christopher Tolkien made editorial choices.

As an editor, that is expected.

There does appear to be a thematic thread which would wholly justify this book, which is CJRT's "editorial misogyny". That's an explosive accusation, and deserves analysis. Which Doug gives.

And do you know what? I think Doug's right. OK, as I've learned, Doug is a lawyer, and lawyer's speak in a language which turns black to white for us mere mortals, but I believe I can discern Doug's implications. CJRT edited out passages that projected women characters as strong and independent.

Well, he did.

There's a caveat to this; I don't know (yet) how much this is specific to female characters, or simply Doug's highlighting of these editorials, but within this book, that argument is made (obliquely, naturally. It's lawyerspeak).

I confess, I didn't want to agree with this accusation, but I found the evidence presented quite persuasive. Not the Galadriel exclusion; I think that is minor, and easily explained (valiant being a peculiarly subjective concept within the realms of the kinslayers), but the diminishment of other female characters is more marked.

But that is for another thread.

To conclude, this is a hugely mixed bag of a book. At times it reminded me of a Star Trek "bloopers" book I read in an airport one time, scary in its fixation with minutiae, but, and its a big but, this is a profoundly scholarly work in which the love for the subject matter leaps from the page.

Contrary to my cynical self, and irrespective of certain peculiarities I have with the author, I have become increasingly enamoured with this forensic investigation.

Fascinating, but is there anybody remaining to whom I could recommend it? :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:39 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 32720
Passdagas the Brown wrote:
First, I greatly enjoyed this book. My Silmarillion would have been different than Christopher Tolkien's, and different from Voronwë's, but having the raw material to explore the multitude of Silmarillions that could have, and may yet, exist, is invaluable.

Secondly, a question: Has there been any indication that Christopher Tolkien has noticed the publication of Arda Reconstructed, and if so, has his opinion been made known?


I'm not sure I ever saw this post before. Sorry for not responding sooner.

I contacted Christopher when I completed my original draft of the book, and sent him a sample of the first three chapters. I contacted me back and indicated that he was not willing to support the project. However, his comments were helpful in the process of revising the draft, which I believe actually did help lead to the book's publication.

Subsequent to the book's publication, Carl Hostetter (who has posted here as Aelfwine), indicated that he contacted Christopher to ask him if he had seen the book. He discusses that discussion in a thread here called History of the Silmarillion vs. History of Middle-earth

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Reviews
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 12:41 am
Posts: 489
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA
Not a review, but I just saw on Christina Scull and Wayne Hammond's blog that a very expensive four-volume collection of previously-published Tolkien scholarship, edited by Stuart Lee, is to appear next year . . . and it will include an extract from Arda Reconstructed.

https://wayneandchristina.wordpress.com/2016/11/24/tolkien-notes-14/

I already own almost everything in the collection, and have no plans to spend another $1,113 (the discounted price!) for second copies of that material.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Reviews
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:35 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 32720
Thanks, N.E.B. I had seen the announcement on "Too Many Books, Not Enough Time" about the Lee collection, but I hadn't clicked through the contents and so did not know until a couple of days ago that the excerpt from my book (the full introductory chapter, I believe), was included until a friend (a mutual friend of yours, actually) told me a couple of days ago. On the one hand, I of course am pleased that it was deemed worthy of inclusion. On the other hand, it is rather surprising to find out after the fact. I don't plan to do anything about it, but a long extract like that certainly should not be used without permission, I don't think. I wonder if all of the material is similarly used without either permission or compensation?

I too own most of the material in the volumes, and would not consider the investment. I can't help but wonder who would? It seems to me that the vast majority of the people that would be interested enough to own this also similarly have already collected the various previous publications that they appeared in.

ETA: Here's the contents, for anyone interested in seeing what is included.
https://www.routledge.com/J-R-R-Tolkien ... 1138889774

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Reviews
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:38 am 
Offline
Happy as a clam at high tide (when reading)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:03 pm
Posts: 10661
Woot! Congrats, V

But yes, after the fact, is quite shocking.

_________________
GNU Terry Pratchett

Trouble began, and not for the first time, with an apple. (Terry Pratchett)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Reviews
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:31 am 
Offline
Living in hope
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:43 am
Posts: 38663
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
I believe "shameless" might be a good word.

That's wrong on an intellectual property level, and also wrong on the level of scholarship. Textbook publishers have an entire department that does nothing but determine what permissions need to be secured, and secure them. If they don't succeed, the material is cut.

This is pretty barefaced. :nono:

_________________
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Reviews
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:29 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 32720
It may turn out that they received permission from my publisher, who in turn did not let me know. I've heard from others that that was the case for them. I'm trying to find out.

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Reviews
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:11 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 32720
Just to follow-up on this, a request to use the material has now been made (after some persistent efforts by my publisher), and a token fee is being negotiated.

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Reviews
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:14 pm 
Offline
Happy as a clam at high tide (when reading)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:03 pm
Posts: 10661
Oh good! :)

_________________
GNU Terry Pratchett

Trouble began, and not for the first time, with an apple. (Terry Pratchett)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Reviews
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:14 pm 
Offline
Happy as a clam at high tide (when reading)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:03 pm
Posts: 10661
So hang on - they used it without permission and are now going through the process after the fact?

_________________
GNU Terry Pratchett

Trouble began, and not for the first time, with an apple. (Terry Pratchett)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Reviews
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:20 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 32720
Well, I don't think it has been actually released yet, just listed. And figuring out who to actually contact to ask permission is a bit complicated because the publisher is listed as Lehigh University Press, but the rights are actually held by Associated University Presses. So I am okay with it. Honestly, I am pleased to have my work considered to be among "the best and most influential critical assessments" of Tolkien's work so I am not going to quibble too much. Perhaps it will even stimulate some additional sales of my book.

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 145 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group