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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:59 am 
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It has been a long time since I have read a post like that here, or anywhere. It is moments like this that make it all worthwhile. :love:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:59 am 
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Great post, PtB. I really appreciated this insight:

Passdagas the Brown wrote:
Anyone who's experienced profound grief knows about the "pit." Whether it sits in your stomach or your mind, staring into it is usually the first stage of such grief.


But also, can we please take a moment to appreciate Boromir? The Elf drops his arrow, wailing. The Dwarf lets go of his axe and covers his face. The wizard falters. And Boromir blows a challenge on his horn, which forces the orcs back by its sheer power of badassness.

Aragorn gets his moment shortly, running to Gandalf's help, but Boromir is right there on is heels. Now, Gandalf is Aragorn's old and dear friend, and the love of him overcomes any fear the true-king might feel. Boromir, presumably, doesn't feel quite that much affection (we find out later that his father is not at all fond of Gandalf) but he leaps forward, again because he is just that badass.

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‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:49 am 
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Great point, Frelga. I have often seen it said that Boromir's is portrayed in a negative light, contrasted with the praises that others sing about him. Moments like that prove that those comments are not so accurate.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:59 am 
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Thanks, all. I try to approach LOTR with fresh eyes, each time I reread it, and sometimes that allows me to relive certain moments as if it was my first go.

Boromir's pride is his downfall (redeemed though he is), but before his encounter with Frodo on Amon Hen, that pride never quite overshadows his honor and badassery. Indeed, he submitted to the will of the Council, and was an invaluable member of the fellowship for the duration. So he got a little crazy about the Ring...don't we all, from time to time?

Boromir sits in the pre-Christian heroic mold. There was a lot to admire in that kind of a person. But ultimately, he stepped into a story written by a Christian who was trying to reconcile that heroic spirit with his Christian ethics. That reconciliation comes in the form of a largely honorable and admirable fellow, who succumbs to the promise of power...


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:21 am 
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of Vinyamar
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Now, here, we can agree PdG. Great post.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:57 am 
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Alatar wrote:
Now, here, we can agree PdG. Great post.


I hate to do this, but this moment deserves a: :hug:

Good to be in agreement again! :)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:34 am 
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Passdagas the Brown wrote:
Thanks, all. I try to approach LOTR with fresh eyes, each time I reread it, and sometimes that allows me to relive certain moments as if it was my first go.

Boromir's pride is his downfall (redeemed though he is), but before his encounter with Frodo on Amon Hen, that pride never quite overshadows his honor and badassery. Indeed, he submitted to the will of the Council, and was an invaluable member of the fellowship for the duration. So he got a little crazy about the Ring...don't we all, from time to time?

Boromir sits in the pre-Christian heroic mold. There was a lot to admire in that kind of a person. But ultimately, he stepped into a story written by a Christian who was trying to reconcile that heroic spirit with his Christian ethics. That reconciliation comes in the form of a largely honorable and admirable fellow, who succumbs to the promise of power...

Another of Boromir's virtues is compassion for the weak, and not just in his death. At Caradhras, he is the one, not Gandalf or Aragorn, who takes the most notice for the hobbits in particular. He points out that they can handle barely the storm and suggests that he and Aragorn carry them across the path when going down (the movies echo this in having him carry Merry and Pippin across the collapsing staircase ).

But then alongside this compassion and his brave heroism, there is also his pride. Blowing the horn as they leave Rivendell, for example, stinks of reckless machismo. So he has many good and bad traits.


Last edited by kzer_za on Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:04 pm 
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PtB, can I say that, though I have been into Tolkien fandom for a short time compared to everyone here, that is perhaps one of the best analyses of a Tolkien-passage I have come across by any Tolkien scholar till now.

It makes me want to re-read the chapter.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:55 pm 
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Yes, thank you, PtB :hug:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:41 pm 
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PtB, that was beautiful. :clap:

Wonderful read of a wonderful chapter.

I love the Moria scenes. They are so powerful and moving.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:48 pm 
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Hugs for all three of you: :hug: :hug: :hug:

And a hug for Tolkien: :hug:

And I'm not even the huggy type!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:55 pm 
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PtB wrote:
I am convinced that Tolkien was deeply inspired during this chapter


I was thinking about this statement, which is particularly interesting given that this chapter was written after a long break in the writing of the book. Tolkien writes in the Foreword to the Second Edition:

Quote:
Those who had asked for more information about hobbits eventually got it, but they had to wait a long time; for the composition of The Lord of the Rings went on at intervals during the years 1936 to 1949, a period in which I had many duties that I did not neglect, and many other interests as a learner and teacher that often absorbed me. The delay was, of course, also increased by the outbreak of war in 1939, by the end of which year the tale had not yet reached the end of Book One. In spite of the darkness of the next five years I found that the story could not now be wholly abandoned, and I plodded on, mostly by night, till I stood by Balin’s tomb in Moria. There I halted for a long while. It was almost a year later when I went on and so came to Lothlórien and the Great River late in 1941.


Christopher notes that while evidence shows that his father was likely misremembering the exact dates that this took place, "it would be out of the question that he should err in his recollection that he 'halted for a long while by Balin's tomb in Moria.' Internal evidence in any case suggests that the 'wave' of composition which had carried the story from the Council of Elrond to the chamber of Balin's tomb came to an end here."

Christopher does indicate that there are notes from the early stages of the writing that go beyond this point, and that he had already anticipated Gandalf's fall (initially in battle with a black rider, before Tolkien "realized" that it was really a balrog). These notes show that Tolkien already at this point also anticipated Gandalf's return, as well.

The first draft of the chapter was actually written after much of the preceding material had been rewritten, and is very rough (Christopher notes that "parts of it would be quite beyond the limits of legibility
were it not for clues provided by later texts"). However, much of the power of the language and the storytelling that PtB describes so eloquently was present from the very beginning. Inspired indeed!

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:26 am 
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The sublimity of the last few posts makes me almost reluctant to add something to the discussion from the earlier posts in this thread, but here goes.

Mention is made of Ori writing in Elvish script, as though he were writing in an Elvish language. But I believe he was writing in the common speech, as the Dwarven runes probably were as well. I believe it's in the appendices where it is said that Dwarves hardly ever (if ever) use their language in public, except for a few place-names and inscriptions. And after all, the Elven script was used by Men and Hobbits as well. It should be no surprise that a Dwarf would know the script, in a world where his people were carrying on trade with the Men in the area as well as the Elves. And Ori was one of those who had been in exile with Thorin and thus had traveled for a long time.

But to add kudos to PdB's post: yeah! :love:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:35 pm 
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You're correct Morwenna. Pictures by JRR Tolkien has the pages from the Book of Mazarbul and they can all be translated back to English from the runes and tengwar by following the tables in the appendices.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:22 pm 
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Yoo hoo, is it time for another chapter?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:23 pm 
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Yup. Are you volunteering to start it? I've been meaning to get around to it, but I haven't had an opportunity. Feel free if you get to it first!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:43 pm 
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But what about the really important question? Does, or does not, a Balrog have wings?
:devil:

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‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:47 pm 
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Ooowwww, not that again!! :rofl: =:)


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:49 pm 
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Aagragaah
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* expecto salmonum * :twisted:

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‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:44 pm 
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*sigh*

:salmon:

Happy? :D

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― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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