It is currently Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:42 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 125 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:32 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 32716
Folca wrote:
I really must say this site is the best Internet find for me for the year. There are a lot of insightful people on this forum.


Thanks for saying that, Folca. I'm glad you are enjoying it here. With you here, there is one more insightful person on this forum!

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:10 am
Posts: 5857
Regarding Gandalf and his manner with hobbits, I'd always been more struck more by his obsequiousness with Saruman (in the meeting that takes place before his imprisonment but which I believe is recounted sometime later), than by his sometimes brusque interactions with Middle-earthlings; these seemed appropriate to me, given that he is a higher being, whereas it feels odd to me to see him being deferential in that other scene.


Voronwë wrote:
Speaking of Sam, what do folks think about the ending of the chapter, where Sam is joyful at the prospect of going to see the Elves, and then bursts into tears. Are they tears of happiness? I don't think so. I think they are tears of regret at the prospect of leaving behind all that he knows and loves (except for Mr. Frodo). But this emotion doesn't replace his joy at the prospect of going to see the Elves, it complements it.

I interpret Sam's tears as a simple emotional release. He's just heard astounding things that have suddenly brought all of his fantastical longings into the realm of reality. He's emotionally overwhelmed at this sudden infusion of knowledge of the far-off world and at the prospect of his wildly altered immediate future plans; plus he just had a genuine if momentary fright at the hands of a bristling Gandalf. He won't have had time to process any thoughts about it, so I take it as emotional overload without a very developed awareness of the diverse implications of what has just happened. However, I'd lean more toward them being tears of joy and excitement than fear and regret.


Quote:
Frodo drew the Ring out of his pocket again and looked at it. It now appeared plain and smooth, without mark or device that he could see. The gold looked very fair and pure, and Frodo thought how rich and beautiful was its color, how perfect was its roundness. It was an admirable thing and altogether precious.

Reading through the thread, I was shocked as never before by the utter disparity here, between the truth of the ring and what it presents itself to be. It is the antithesis of admirable and precious, yet its deceptiveness is so persuasive that even knowing the truth doesn't protect one from the lie. Or maybe it does? Those (non-bearers) who accept and/or understand what they are told about the ring don't seem bothered by temptation of it, whereas I think Boromir never really believes it could be all bad, and so the lie continues to influence him.

_________________
Avatar photo by Richard Lykes, used with permission.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:19 pm 
Offline
Reads while walking
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:05 pm
Posts: 4630
But it's the progression in that description that is SO brilliant, isn't it? From plain old "plain" to that most fraught of LOTRian adjectives: "precious"!! :D

Starts "plain," and then every other move is a devious slippage:

"with mark or device" (already the shift from "mark" to "device" is I think important, if one gets very dictionary intensive for a moment) to "that he could see" (!), a phrase that always means some device must actually be there after all. (not so "plain"!)

"the gold looked very fair and pure" -- good things, but then we quickly slip to "rich and beautiful," which are adjectives applied to different sorts of, say, people, than "fair and pure." (another step away from plainness)

"admirable" -- well, that's Boromir, foreshadowed; and "precious" is Gollum.

Quite a tale foretold in these few lines.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:24 pm 
Online
of Vinyamar
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:39 pm
Posts: 7913
Location: Ireland
Thats an interesting point about Boromir, Cerin, and maybe it throws light on Saruman's fall too? They didn't "choose" evil in full knowledge. Pride made them believe that they could use the Ring. They both believed they could control it simply as a tool, without being corrupted. Of course Saruman's fall is much further and more complete. Its a pity really that we never got to see Saruman the White, who Gandalf trusted completely.

_________________
Image
The Vinyamars on Stage! This time at Bag End


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:26 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 141
Location: The Great Northwest
Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:
Folca wrote:
I really must say this site is the best Internet find for me for the year. There are a lot of insightful people on this forum.


Thanks for saying that, Folca. I'm glad you are enjoying it here. With you here, there is one more insightful person on this forum!


You are all welcome. I have enjoyed reading most of the content I have taken the time to look at on the site in general, but this one especially.

I defenitely don't think Boromir intended evil over his desire to use the ring either. Boromir wasn't the tutored individual Faramir was, and in that sense I think he may see the what is available to him only as basic tools. He understands the ring is powerful, but perhaps only in the context that is like a sword, when wielded by someone strong and skilled, effective no matter who the original owner may have been.

_________________
"Ut Prosim"
"There are some things that it is better to begin than refuse, even though the end may be dark" Aragorn
"Those who commit honorable acts need no forgiveness"
http://killology.com/sheep_dog.htm


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:08 am 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 32716
Teremia wrote:
Quite a tale foretold in these few lines.


There is an awful lot of foreshadowing in this chapter, isn't there Teremia? Some of it is stuff that Tolkien wrote in this chapter and then developed from there. But alot of it is stuff that he came back and added later on, after developing the ideas further on. A good example is his statement that "no words of Saruman" could allay his fears after the words and deeds of Bilbo the night of the party. He is referring, of course, to the statements of Saruman that he describes in the Council of Elrond claiming that the Ring was lost for ever because it had gone to the Sea. But this history was not devised until later, and then Tolkien went back and added this passage to Ancient History/The Shadow of the Past. This is a good indication of how Tolkien fully intended that people would read his work multiple times, and find new connections each time.

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:53 am 
Offline
Throw me a rope.
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:13 pm
Posts: 5709
Location: Deep in Oz
Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:
This is a good indication of how Tolkien fully intended that people would read his work multiple times, and find new connections each time.


Perhaps. Or perhaps a clear demonstration of the depth of his love for this world. It had to have depth and meaning for him and so he lovingly returned and returned to add the lustre and patina of care.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:37 pm 
Offline
Happy as a clam at high tide (when reading)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:03 pm
Posts: 10652
Impenitent wrote:
Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:
This is a good indication of how Tolkien fully intended that people would read his work multiple times, and find new connections each time.


Perhaps. Or perhaps a clear demonstration of the depth of his love for this world. It had to have depth and meaning for him and so he lovingly returned and returned to add the lustre and patina of care.


And fits in well with his wish for a created history.

_________________
GNU Terry Pratchett

Trouble began, and not for the first time, with an apple. (Terry Pratchett)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:22 pm 
Offline
Happy as a clam at high tide (when reading)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:03 pm
Posts: 10652
Should we move on to the next chapter?

_________________
GNU Terry Pratchett

Trouble began, and not for the first time, with an apple. (Terry Pratchett)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:29 pm 
Offline
Living in hope
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:43 am
Posts: 38641
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
Voronwë's out of town until tomorrow, and the whole board has been rather quiet. Maybe give it a day or two and let Voronwë get back?

_________________
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:36 pm 
Offline
Happy as a clam at high tide (when reading)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:03 pm
Posts: 10652
of course. :)

_________________
GNU Terry Pratchett

Trouble began, and not for the first time, with an apple. (Terry Pratchett)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:59 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 32716
I'm back. :) While there are still one or two issues that I might want to address with this chapter, I agree that it is time to move forward. If someone would like to get the ball moving on the next chapter, please feel free to start a new thread, and I or one of the other shirriffs will sticky it and and unsticky this one. If no one has gotten around to it in the next day or two, I'll go ahead and start a new thread. But really anyone can do it. This is a very loose discussion!

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:38 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:54 am
Posts: 1117
Impenitent wrote:
Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:
This is a good indication of how Tolkien fully intended that people would read his work multiple times, and find new connections each time.


Perhaps. Or perhaps a clear demonstration of the depth of his love for this world. It had to have depth and meaning for him and so he lovingly returned and returned to add the lustre and patina of care.


I think I agree with you, Imp. There's a passage in one of Tolkien's letters (addressing the fact that children are reading LOTR) that makes me wonder if he really did think that his tale would be read multiple times.

From Letter #189:

Quote:
But then I am a very 'unvoracious' reader, and since I can seldom bring myself to read a work twice, I think of the many things I read - too soon! Nothing, not even a (possible) deeper appreciation, for me replaces the bloom on a book, the freshness of the unread.


As someone who actually relishes the "second read" (and third and.....) of books that steal my heart or challenge my mind (or both), I've never quite understood how people who really love a particular book can't be tempted to savour it again. For me, it's just the natural thing to do. I think it really jolted me when I saw those words coming from the man who had written the book I've read innumerable times over many years. I wonder what he would think of us - this gathering of folk who have lost count of our readings and still know that we will read it again and discover something new.

_________________
Image

Who could be so lucky? Who comes to a lake for water and sees the reflection of moon.
Jalal ad-Din Rumi


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:47 am 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 32716
And discuss it among friends around the world!

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:50 am 
Offline
Living in hope
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:43 am
Posts: 38641
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
It's interesting to envision what Tolkien might have done with this technology—assuming it was as commonplace as it is now and he would be willing to use it! :)

_________________
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:41 am 
Offline
Aagragaah
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:31 pm
Posts: 12821
Location: Out on the banks
Primula Baggins wrote:
It's interesting to envision what Tolkien might have done with this technology—assuming it was as commonplace as it is now and he would be willing to use it! :)


I wonder if he'd have Gorbag and Shagrat exchanging text messages. :upsidedown:

_________________
Image
‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:59 pm
Posts: 2212
Quote:
"No, and I don't want to," said Frodo. I can't understand you. Do you mean to say that you, and the Elves, have let him live on after all those horrible deeds? Now at any rate he is as bad as an Orc, and just an enemy. He deserves death."
"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many - yours not least.


At the time Gandalf said this, Sméagol was held prisoner, and was supposed to be held indefinitely. Did Gandalf think Sméagol would escape? Did he think it would be a good idea for Sméagol to be let go? That's a very different thing from saying that Sméagol shouldn't be killed! Gandalf talks as if Sméagol will be free and playing a part later, but how could he know this?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:58 pm 
Offline
Living in hope
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:43 am
Posts: 38641
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
I think not all of Gandalf's wisdom came from straight reasoning. "His heart told him." And presumably Gandalf would have a heart as wise and informed, in its way, as his head.

And I get the sense that Gandalf thoughtt no action should be taken, either death or freedom. Either something would happen, or it would not, but the possibility shouldn't be pre-empted. That's my take, anyway.

_________________
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:32 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 32716
That's a great question, Faramond. Really, the only way that that passage makes sense is by accepting that Gandalf is some kind of divine messenger. Of course, that means different things whether one looks at LOTR alone, or as part of a larger mythology (as I do). In the latter case, the explanation is that even in his physical incarnation as one of the Istari in Middle-earth, as one of the original Ainur, Gandalf/Olórin has some deep memory of the Music buried in his consciousness, perhaps buried so deep that it is not in his conscious mind, but rather manifests itself as a something that only his "heart" can tell him.

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:54 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 32716
Just posting to add the observation that once Tolkien decided to add the character of Sam Gamgee, the scene in which he is caught eavedropping and Gandalf decided that he should go with Bingo/Frodo was incorporated into the text almost word for word with the final version. I think that is very interesting.

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 125 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group