Denethor Revisited

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Few characters in the LOTR films have been greeted with more scorn in segments of the Tolkien fandom then Denethor (perhaps only Faramir, and maybe not even him). And yes, I agree that much of his characterization was too over the top, that his madness came on too quickly, that the wizard-whacking was unnecessary, and that his flaming dash was completely ridiculous. However, there were many fine aspects to his characterization. He probably had more lines straight from Tolkien per screen time then any other character, and I really think that John Noble did a fine job with them.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that Denethor is one of the few characters in the Lord of the Rings who who's character has been influenced for me when I read the book. The character has come alive for me more then over. For instance, when I read the line "That depends on the manner of your return." in response to Faramir's statement that if he should return, his father should think better of him, I hear the scorn in his voice much more then I ever did before. And when he asks Pippin whether he can sing, I hear the condensation, just barely tinged with distant kindness (of course the change in which Pippin actually does sing is worth it's own discussion, as I think it is quite possibly the best "change" that the filmmakers made in the whole trilogy).

[yovargas]

Few characters in the LOTR films have been greeted with more scorn in segments of the Tolkien fandom then Denethor (perhaps only Faramir, and maybe not even him). And yes, I agree that much of his characterization was too over the top, that his madness came on too quickly, that the wizard-whacking was unnecessary, and that his flaming dash was completely ridiculous.

I disagree on all counts.
Not surprisingly, as I'm used to being in the minority in these things.


I found Denethor's film presentation very powerful. I barely even remember the book character.....

[vison]

I wish I could forget movie-Denethor. I have a suspicion that John Noble could have done a noble job on the guy, but then PJ intervened. . . . I think the thing (next to Denethor Flambe) that got to me the most was the tomatoes or cherries or whatever the hell that red juicy fruit was. Like, is there a cliche that man left unturned?

OK.

Sorry.


There were a couple of minutes that showed promise, I admit.

[yovargas]

Cliche? I can't recall ever seeing that done anywhere else.

[axordil]

It all goes back to that Goya painting.

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

Few characters in the LOTR films have been greeted with more scorn in segments of the Tolkien fandom then Denethor (perhaps only Faramir, and maybe not even him). And yes, I agree that much of his characterization was too over the top, that his madness came on too quickly, that the wizard-whacking was unnecessary, and that his flaming dash was completely ridiculous. However, there were many fine aspects to his characterization. He probably had more lines straight from Tolkien per screen time then any other character, and I really think that John Noble did a fine job with them.

I couldn't agree more. In fact, it was the changes PJ & Co. made to Gandalf during this portion of the film that I most disliked.

In the film Gandalf is contemptuous of Denethor from the very get-go. In the book Gandalf looks kindly on Pippin for swearing an oath to Denethor; I recall he says something about it "pleasing his [Denethor's] humor". In the movie Gandalf is highly annoyed at what he obviously considers a "tom fool of a Took" moment.

Of course there's the scene where Gandalf firmly whacks Denethor in the forehead with his staff that Voronwë mentioned above. (Apparently PJ was going for the same visceral reaction when he had Aragorn uncharacteristically and rather dishonorably slice the Mouth of Sauron's head from his shoulders.) The coup de grâce comes when Shadowfax kicks Denethor back into the pyre. :|

It's a shame that the movie audience wasn't informed of Denethor's use of the palantír. It may not have made the audience any more sympathetic of Denethor, but at least they might have understood the primary cause of his madness.

P.S. I believe those were cherry tomatoes, vison. They're usually used in salads, and are almost as good as grape tomatoes.

[superwizard]

I was very moved by a scene that Denethor had with Gandalf. It was the first scene where we meet Denethor and when he does his whole speech (You think you are wise Mithrandir...). It was one of those moments when I was truly glad PJ did the movies.

[Pearly Di]

The coup de grâce comes when Shadowfax kicks Denethor back into the pyre. :|

Oh, brother. One of ROTK's low points. Good job the high points are so very, very high!

It's one of the great mysteries as to how PJ's LOTR can get it so, so right so often and then at other times go completely screwy.

It gets on my nerves in the worst way that Gandalf stands there solemnly intoning "there passes the heir of Ecthelion" or whatever while poor Denethor flees shrieking, his robes on fire. Nobody lifts a finger to help him, including the sycophantic idiots who were quite happy to help him burn himself AND burn Faramir alive.

Having got that off my chest I should also say that John Noble is an awesome actor and his performance as Denethor is very memorable.

I dislike Denethor in the book. He's a git. A GIT. I disapprove of him so much for wanting to murder Faramir along with his suicide. What a selfish father! However ... I must remember that he is a deluded git, and I agree with Tom it's a shame the film didn't show that. Denethor is one of the most interesting characters in LOTR ... he's a complex man. Doesn't me make me like him any more, but I do think he's a very well-written character.

And to give John Noble his due, he is of the awesome.

[vison]

Pearly Di, as usual, expresses much of what I think.

PJ got a lot right, mostly the LOOK of the thing. He failed miserably and repeatedly, IMVHO, when it came to character. Whether that reveals much about him as a person, I can't say. But it irritated me no end and the more time passes the more irritated I get.

By the time I'm 100 years old (next week, it feels like) I will be irritated to the point of lunacy.








Yes, yes. I know what you would say . . . .

[axordil]

PJ has a tendency, often unfortunate, but sometimes inspired, to sacrifice EVERYTHING for just the "right" visual. He's not alone in this as a director. It seemed to me that with Denethor he chose the visual over the verbal on several occasions, sometimes resulting in a cringe, sometimes in a "whoa" as the visual then helped DEFINE the character.

[yovargas]

PJ has a tendency, often unfortunate, but sometimes inspired, to sacrifice EVERYTHING for just the "right" visual.

I am totally okay with that (assuming the visual works).

[axordil]

Oh, when it works, it can be very effective. Or it can be the perfume ad with Arwen and Aragorn and the horse.

[yovargas]

I am totally okay with that too.

[vison]

[Inanna]

I am totally okay with that too.

[yovargas]

You guys are referring to the scene in TTT where Aragorn is in the river and he "sees" Arwen then the horse rescues him, right? Don't see anything wrong with that scene.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Me neither, yov. I actually think it was quite cleverly done, and an excellent way to bring Arwen into the second film, when it became clear that the originally (in my opinion badly conceived) concept of having her play an active role in the fight at Helms Deep was (fortunately abandoned). But that should probably be a separate thread, and I would certainly be game for a discussion about Arwen, and how brilliantly she was incorporated into the films.

[axordil]

I don't object to the scene per se, only to what I think is an insufficiently realized visual for it. It's certainly better than a poke in the eye with a sword from Arwen at Helm's Deep.

[Inanna]

It was just extremely corny to me. And I had no clue that Arwen was supposed to be involved in the fight in Helm's Deep. Yikes! Overall, I think the inclusion of Arwen was fine, though a bit over-done. And yes, am game for that discussion.

Coming back to Denethor - my main issue with movie-Denthor was not showing him using the palantír and bringing that connection in. Especially when the palantír was introduced so early in FOTR by PJ. The base was there, I think it could have been very well incorporated, visually too. And even though I do not like Denethor's character at all, the movie-one might have come out a little better. Just a little.

[yovargas]

The decision to not even hint at the palantír was an odd choice.