Denethor Revisited

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yes, it was. I think, quite frankly, that it fell through the cracks.

[yovargas]

You mean, like, they just forgot?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yup. I think they had so much on their plate, and they tried to do so many things, that they just forgot to tie up that thread.

[Inanna]

Possible. Or maybe they had to edit stuff out because of movie length.

[axordil]

If that were the case, it would have almost certainly shown up in the Extended Edition, though.

I think they may have been afraid it would confuse the uninitiated to have yet another palantír around...even though the existence of others is alluded to.

[Alatar]

From what I can remember John Noble stated that he never filmed a scene with palantír. There are a couple of references which are a sort of nod to the fans. From memory, I think the quotes about the eyes of the white tower not being blind, and the reference to flickering light from the topmost window are in there somewhere, but never explained.

[Túrin Turambar]

In terms of script and story, Denethor is probably my least favourite of PJ’s adapted characters. My real issue is the film Denethor is simply shallow with no apparent motivation beyond being crazy and evil. The line ‘your father loves you, Faramir, and he will remember it before the end’ really seems jarring for that reason, even though it works in the book.

[ToshoftheWuffingas]

I'm glad someone else spotted that mix of condescension and kindness that Noble brought out. It was a bright spot in an otherwise frustrating portrayal. I wish Noble and Mckellen had been given better stuff to work with.

[yovargas]

In terms of script and story, Denethor is probably my least favourite of PJ’s adapted characters. My real issue is the film Denethor is simply shallow with no apparent motivation beyond being crazy and evil. The line ‘your father loves you, Faramir, and he will remember it before the end’ really seems jarring for that reason, even though it works in the book.

I always read it as him succumbing to overwhelming grief and despair upon learning of the loss of his favorite son. Works fine for me in that perspective. I adore Denethor's portrayal.

[Inanna]

In terms of script and story, Denethor is probably my least favourite of PJ’s adapted characters. My real issue is the film Denethor is simply shallow with no apparent motivation beyond being crazy and evil. The line ‘your father loves you, Faramir, and he will remember it before the end’ really seems jarring for that reason, even though it works in the book.

I always read it as him succumbing to overwhelming grief and despair upon learning of the loss of his favorite son. Works fine for me in that perspective. I adore Denethor's portrayal.

For that particular line, yes - I can buy the explanation of grief. But for his ENTIRE portrayal?? Come on, yov.

[Túrin Turambar]

The problem is that other characters (notably Théoden) lose children and don't go insane and start trying to kill off their remaining family. That's the part of an already weak and deranged man, which doesn't quite fit with the intelligent and forceful character we're actually shown. In the end, he just looks like he's being evil for the hell of it.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

It's been said before, but I'll say it again. Denethor's portrayal would have been so greatly improved by even a small, but specific, reference to the palantír. That would really help explain why he descended into madness.

Nonetheless, I am largely in yov's camp on this. I really do see the noble (yet arrogant) steward of Gondor falling into madness.

[anthriel]

I thought John Noble's wig was really bad. REALLY bad. Especially in that scene in TTT's extended cut? Just... bad. It very much took me out of the moment, when I first saw it. Yikes.

I'm glad someone else spotted that mix of condescension and kindness that Noble brought out. It was a bright spot in an otherwise frustrating portrayal. I wish Noble and Mckellen had been given better stuff to work with.

I wish Noble had been given better stuff to work with, too!

My least favorite characters (who were supposed to be, at least nominally, "good" guys) in the book were Denethor and Boromir. They both seemed like vain, fallen, selfish men to me.

But in the book, for both of them, there were flashes of nobility that would come out, from time to time. I remember reading about Denethor's robes shifting and revealing a chain-mail undergarment of some sort; it was representative of the warrior he really was, underneath all the fluff.

In the movie, I thought PJ did a brilliant job fleshing out the character of Boromir, and allowing his viewers to see the nobility in that man, even when he had been weak and bullying. He did redeem himself, by protecting the hobbits, and that was extremely clear in the movie. I learned to like Boromir better after the movie, and I had a bit of sympathy for him. I no longer saw him as just a greedy, blustering bully.

Denethor had no such dimension built into his movie character. I really think he got short-changed in the movies, and John Noble could have completely nailed any meatier role that had been given him. We didn't get to see Denethor as anything but a bitter, twisted, merciless man.

And I think Tolkien's Denethor was quite a bit more than that.

[Primula Baggins]

I thought film Denethor's grief for Boromir was powerful and well played. But his dislike for Faramir was too one-dimensional; it kept me from believing or being moved by his reversal when Faramir is brought home dying.

And the death scene—I would have thought the way it's described in the book would have been chilling enough for PJ. The idea of the palantír, ever after, showing only two hands withering in flame—yikes!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

In the movie, I thought PJ did a brilliant job fleshing out the character of Boromir, and allowing his viewers to see the nobility in that man, even when he had been weak and bullying. He did redeem himself, by protecting the hobbits, and that was extremely clear in the movie. I learned to like Boromir better after the movie, and I had a bit of sympathy for him. I no longer saw him as just a greedy, blustering bully.

Denethor had no such dimension built into his movie character. I really think he got short-changed in the movies, and John Noble could have completely nailed any meatier role that had been given him. We didn't get to see Denethor as anything but a bitter, twisted, merciless man.

And I think Tolkien's Denethor was quite a bit more than that.

Yes, I am forced to agree with you, Anth, when you put it like that, with the direct comparison to Boromir. I think that Denethor suffered very much from PJ's attempts to do too much. Boromir was able to be fleshed out in FOTR, but there was room to flesh out Denethor in ROTK. Hence the limited portrain of him as, a bitter, twisted, merciless man.

You really had to be looking hard for it to find what glimpses of nobility they did show.

[anthriel]

I agree that Boromir's death was hard on movie Denethor, and that Noble did a great job with that. It still seemed to be about Denethor, didn't it? Boromir's death and how it affected HIM. Noble was perfect.

I know that the squirting tomatoes scene was a little dramatic. (And how long WAS that meal, anyway? Those guys got suited up, passed through town, and were out on the fields charging the orcs, and Denethor is STILL eating). But it is a chilling scene, nonetheless. I love how the actual violence is merely implied. Genius.

I have a hard time believing that they just overlooked the palantír angle with Denethor... they almost would have had to cut that out on purpose. A real shame, that. It would have made all the rest make so much more sense.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I know that the squirting tomatoes scene was a little dramatic. (And how long WAS that meal, anyway? Those guys got suited up, passed through town, and were out on the fields charging the orcs, and Denethor is STILL eating). But it is a chilling scene, nonetheless. I love how the actual violence is merely implied. Genius.

Well said. And Billy Boyd's song! Taking Tolkien's lighthearted walking song and turning it into such a powerful moment has got to be one of, if not the, most brilliant adaptations (or perhaps, "adoptations") in all the films.

I have a hard time believing that they just overlooked the palantír angle with Denethor... they almost would have had to cut that out on purpose. A real shame, that. It would have made all the rest make so much more sense.

That's one of the few things that makes me want to just take PJ and shake him over.

[ToshoftheWuffingas]

Do you want your coat held?

[Aravar]

But in the book, for both of them, there were flashes of nobility that would come out, from time to time. I remember reading about Denethor's robes shifting and revealing a chain-mail undergarment of some sort; it was representative of the warrior he really was, underneath all the fluff.

i think that is actually kept in the film: you can see what appears to be armour under the robes in the Pyre scene.

[Primula Baggins]

It was kept in the film—I've been watching the extras on the treadmill, and Denethor's costume included the full suit of chain mail, which weighed a lot and was only seen once (Noble describes how when he took it off at the end of the day, he'd feel as if he were floating away).

However, nothing was made of it in a dramatic sense; I think it was one of PJ's gestures toward the book without really using the book. A more faithful death scene would have had time for it.

Though perhaps it's just as well. In the extras they explain the mail as a sign of Denethor's incredible vanity: that he thinks he is a warrior as good as his sons. When of course he would have been, in his time, exactly that.