The music of (adapted) LotR

[JewelSong]

Shirriff note: This topic was split off from a discussion in the "PJ is off the Hobbit" thread here. Aravar's remark to which Jewel is responding in this first post was a small part of a longer post that I felt should be left in place in the original thread.

—Prim
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Losing Howard Shore wouldn't bother me that much. I've never understood the enthusiasm for the score.

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[Aravar]

Losing Howard Shore wouldn't bother me that much. I've never understood the enthusiasm for the score.

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I just have never found it particularly moving. The onmly memporable them is the 'Fellowship' one and that's pretty short.

Many years ago it was John Williams' Star Wars score that got me into orchestral music. From him I went via The Planets and the 1812, through Beethoven and Tchaikovsky (you know the other Russian who wrote a piano concerto ) to Mozart, Handel and Bach. Beethoven's 9th is still my aboslute favourite, but I think I've turned from the more bombastic Romantics towards the classical. This may explain in part why I am not overly impressed by Shore.

I still love Williams' music for Star Wars. With respect to the OT I can place events, pretty much, by listening to the music. It fits so well. (As an aside I think that was one of the faults of the prequels that was rarely discussed: editing of the film continued after the final delivery of the music, with the result that the music no longer fits the image like a glove. It comes in at the wrong place: the entry of Darth Maul in TPM is a case in point). Shore's score has never impressed me like that: it doesn't seem to fit the action as well.

Some of it to me is wrong in tone. Shore uses an awful lot of 'Celtic' sound. The Shire is the England (of myth) and not Scotland Wales or Ireland. It should be Vaughn Willams or Elgar, and it isn't.

[axordil]

Trying to imagine Elgarian music for LOTR---

Sorry, my head exploded. Gotta tidy up my cubicle now.

[Aravar]

Trying to imagine Elgarian music for LOTR---

Sorry, my head exploded. Gotta tidy up my cubicle now.

So, you're saying that something of the tone of the Introduction and Allegro, or Cockaigne, or Nimrod wouldn't work?

[truehobbit]

ROFL, kams!

Aravar, I think the Celtic elements in the score were meant to convey the idea of down-to-earth characteristics. I think what people connect with the Celtic culture (rightly or wrongly) is the idea of an uncorrupted, communicative relationship with nature - such as you might say Hobbits have, too.
Highly stylised classical music like Elgar, no matter how "English" it is, might have appeared too sophisticated.
Plus, I guess one could say that in the ancient past, the Celtic culture was all over England, and the age of the Shire is definitely in the ancient past.

But I loved reading of your taste developing from bombastic to more subtle.

[Aravar]

ROFL, kams!

Aravar, I think the Celtic elements in the score were meant to convey the idea of down-to-earth characteristics. I think what people connect with the Celtic culture (rightly or wrongly) is the idea of an uncorrupted, communicative relationship with nature - such as you might say Hobbits have, too.
Highly stylised classical music like Elgar, no matter how "English" it is, might have appeared too sophisticated.
Plus, I guess one could say that in the ancient past, the Celtic culture was all over England, and the age of the Shire is definitely in the ancient past.

But I loved reading of your taste developing from bombastic to more subtle.

But something like Vaughn Williams Tallis Fantasia is so appropriate (so appropriate that I recall a BBC documentary which included interviews with JRRT that used it as the ending credits: it fits so well in tone).

Both Elgar and Vaughn Williams were, strictly, from Mercia, like JRRT, and their lives overlapped JRRT to a great extent: they were operating in a similar cultural space, especially Elgar who was also a Roman Catholic (Elgar's Dream of Gerontius is based on Newman, who is connected to Tolkien through the Birmingham Oratory).

While it is true that Britain, and so the territory that is England, was once Celtic, it is singularly inappropriate with JRRT. His reason for wrting the mythos was to create an English myth, because in the main British myth cycle, that of Arthur the English are the bad guys. M-E is an intentional counterpoint to that cycle of Celtic origin.

[JewelSong]

Tolkien also wrote that the Shire would seem "Celtic" to many people...although it was not.

I am at work and cannot reference it right now, but the Celtic "feeling" was something Tolkien was very much aware of. I thought Shore's music was perfect.

[Alatar]

Tolkien liked the Elves to sing in something that sounded like Latin plain chant. I strongly suspect that I would have hated a movie made with Tolkiens choice of music. Bear in mind, he liked the Donald Swann arrangements.

[Aravar]

Tolkien liked the Elves to sing in something that sounded like Latin plain chant. I strongly suspect that I would have hated a movie made with Tolkiens choice of music. Bear in mind, he liked the Donald Swann arrangements.

Plainchant would fit the hymn to Elbereth.

I still haven't picked up Swann's arrnagements: they have them now and again in my local Waterstone's, but I've never taken the plunge. I am curious to see what the composer of the Hippo Song made of Middle-Earth.

I liked the BBC's music, especially the Ents' marching song.

Edit to add: are you thinking, Jewel, of this passage from Letter 131?

Do not laugh! But once upon a time (my crest has long since fallen)I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story--the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the vast backcloths--which I would dedicate simply to: to England; to my country. It should possess the tone and quality that I desired, somewhat cool and clear, be redolent of our 'air' (the clime and soil of the North West, meaning Britain and the hither parts of Europe: not Italy or the Aegean, still less the East), and, while possessing (if I could achieve it) the fair elusive beauty that some call Celtic (though it is rarely found in genuine ancient Celtic things), it should be 'high', purged of the gross, and fit for the more adult mind of a land long now steeped in poetry. I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama. Absurd

[truehobbit]

It should possess the tone and quality that I desired, somewhat cool and clear, be redolent of our 'air' (the clime and soil of the North West, meaning Britain and the hither parts of Europe: not Italy or the Aegean, still less the East), and, while possessing (if I could achieve it) the fair elusive beauty that some call Celtic (though it is rarely found in genuine ancient Celtic things), it should be 'high', purged of the gross, and fit for the more adult mind of a land long now steeped in poetry.

Hmmh - cool and clear and Nordic. I can imagine what he means, but I think that in terms of music, the Shire itself should be represented by simple music - northern European folklore style more than that folklore style sublimated by classical composers.

Although I must admit I don't know much of the pieces you mention - I've got some Elgar, and tend to love his music, but haven't listened to anything by him for ages. I've never even heard of the Dream of Gerontius or Williams's Tallis fantasia - care to swap for a recording of the Swann songs?
I liked some of them very much, others I don't care for a lot.
What's the Hippo song?

[Aravar]

What's the Hippo song?

Michael Flanders and Donald Swann did comedy revues in the 1950s, mainly of comic songs. The lyrics of the chorus of the Hippo Song are:

'Mud, mud glorious mud
There's nothing quite like it for cooling the blood
So follow me, follow
Down to the hollow
And there let us wallow
In glorious mud.'

[axordil]

Does the music discussion deserve its own thread, probably still here?

[Aravar]

Does the music discussion deserve its own thread, probably still here?

That's probably a good idea.

[Pearly Di]

Plainchant would fit the hymn to Elbereth.

Aravar, have you heard the recording where Tolkien sings the Hymn to Elbereth in plainchant?

Like you, I really like Stephen Oliver's music for the BBC LOTR. There are bits I like more than others. I've always had mixed feelings about the Hymn to Elbereth being done basically as an Elizabeth madrigal, but it's a bold and interesting thing to do. I particularly like Oliver's arrangements for The Road Goes Ever On , Aragorn's Theme, Lament for the Fallen and Lórien ... oh, and his beautiful melodies for Gil-galad was an Elven King, and In Western Lands (sob!)

I still haven't picked up Swann's arrangements: they have them now and again in my local Waterstone's, but I've never taken the plunge. I am curious to see what the composer of the Hippo Song made of Middle-Earth.

I've heard Swann's arrangement of 'The Road Goes Ever On'. I didn't like it at all! It's terribly Noel Coward.

Stephen Oliver's music does have a lovely Elgarian feel to it.

But Howard Shore's music is infinitely more suited to the magnificent spectacle of PJ's films. Shore's music has a transcendental, sublime quality that is perfect for LOTR.

[TheTennisBallKid]

Shore's Shire music has a Celtic feel to it because of the folk instruments, yes...but the principal melody for the hobbits could very well be a traditional English one. (it's often been noted that the Shire theme has the same opening notes as the hymn "This Is My Father's World")

But...the score wasn't written with the intent to sound like English folk music, or what would evolve into it. Perhaps this would bother me if I was English. But I'm not and it doesn't and I think Shore's work is a remarkable achievement in its own right, and incredibly effective as an emotional and psychological counterpoint to the visuals...and it does draw from Tolkien in other ways; the way the leitmotives are interrelated and the use of Tolkien's languages...




ttbk[/post to split off to another thread]

[eborr]

pedant note

England became England cos the Angles stole it from the Celts.

Tolkien was specfically English, and although he apparently liked the Welsh language.


In fact there is quite a nice anology between the firstborn (celts) moving to the West and taking their language with them.

The Hobbit as a story strikes me as particularly English

[Aravar]

Shore's Shire music has a Celtic feel to it because of the folk instruments, yes...

No what I'm saying is nothing to do with the use of folk instruments, it is about the feeling that the music evokes. That's why I'm banging on about Elgar and Vaughn Williams.

I'm not familiar with the hymn you mentioned.

Aravar, have you heard the recording where Tolkien sings the Hymn to Elbereth in plainchant?

I haven't. Is it on one of his readings from the books?

[Elentári]

Shore shares insights on ‘Rings’ trilogy
http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/28108

At a Master’s Tea at Branford College, on March 3rd, Shore shared insights about composing, orchestrating, conducting and producing more than ten hours of music to accompany “The Lord of the Rings” films.

For me, his most insightful comments were the following:

For “The Lord of the Rings,” Shore said it was not necessary to look for inspiration from other composers. Instead, he read the books and immersed himself in the visual world that Jackson had already begun to conjure. Shore then developed more than 80 separate themes for the three sound tracks, which were inspired by each character’s development throughout the novels.

“The story was interesting, but I love the smaller relationships within it, and I like the things the book said about friendship, honor, courage and sacrifice,” Shore said. “There were so many wonderful human characteristics in the book, and those really spoke to me.”

[Pearly Di]

That man rocks.

Earlier in this thread it was suggested by Aravar that Elgarian music would suit the Shire more.

I would prefer Vaughn Williams. I love his music but I can't stand Elgar's Enigma Variations ! Such a dirge. Sheesh. Whereas practically anything by Vaughn Williams will send me into raptures. I can't explain it.

I think trad. English classical music would work well for the Shire, sure, and both Howard Shore and Stephen Oliver (the BBC LotR composer) used Englishy-sounding folk tunes in their music for LotR, but to locate the Shire more in its actual imaginary context -- i.e. an imaginary piece of history 7,000 years ago or whatever -- then more ancient-sounding, and yes, Celtic-sounding music would work just as well. The BBC went this route with their 1968 radio dramatisation of The Hobbit.

I, again, highly recommend the Tolkien Ensemble's work, esp. in their recording An Evening in Rivendell, which combines hobbity folk ballads with the most gorgeous, ethereal music for the Elves.

[Elentári]

Di wrote:

practically anything by Vaughn Williams will send me into raptures.

Good call - to me, the man is the English countryside

I loved most of the Stephen Oliver incidental music too - I used to play it in the car a lot - must dig it out again!

Di also wrote:

I, again, highly recommend the Tolkien Ensemble's work, esp. in their recording An Evening in Rivendell, which combines hobbity folk ballads with the most gorgeous, ethereal music for the Elves.

I recently discovered this group, and love their sound. As you probably know, Christopher Lee highly rates them too, and has worked with them.