PJs Movies - Did he touch other material besides LotR?

[Alatar]

Interesting question asked on TORC about using material from UT or other sources for the Hobbit movie.

Is there anything in the LotR movies which wasn't in the book but which was in one of the other books?

I'm trying to think. I suspect some of the Thorongil stuff was only mentioned in UT, but it may have been in the Appendices also.


Any thoughts?

[Holbytla]

Well I have become foggy on what was written and where, but I think the full details pf Isildur and the ring, which PJ certainly used to an extent, were found mostly in UT.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

There was a thread on this very subject back in the old m00bies forum. I'll try to find it and repeate what I said there, lo these many years ago.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Silmarillion influences on the LOTR movies

[Alatar]

Thanks V. Most of those are "influences" rather than scenes, but there's some useful bits in there.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yeah. I think there was another thread, but I couldn't find it. Still, it's always interesting to look back at those times.

[solicitr]

As far as I can tell, PJ's Gladden Fields comes entirely from LR and differs in many respects from the detailed account in UT. For example, in UT Isildur (who had sensibly shed his armor) is not shot while swimming, but as he stands up in the reeds on the far bank of the river.

As far as I recall, the only 'import' from other writing in the script is Saruman's origin-of-Orcs speech, since LR has nothing to say on the subject other than Frodo's speculation that Sauron had warped rather than created them- but from what stock he never attempts to guess.

There are some visual borrowings from other books- notably Elrond's and Gil-galad's coats of arms (Pictures/Artist & Illustrator), which appear in miniature on their armor in the Prologue.

[Andreth]

A couple of things I have listed in my talk include:

The 2 Trees Tapestry in Arwen's room
The Ring of Barahir
"the grace of the Valar"
the lamps carried by the elves as they leave Rivendell are similiar to the Feanorian lamps described in the Sil.
The Doors of Durin which include the star of Fëanor, though I know this taken directly from Tolkien's illustration
Merry and Pippin's Noldorian knives

[Alatar]

I was going to mention the Ring of Barahir Andreth. Thats a pretty major one.

I suppose the Tolkien estate would have been pretty churlish to object to "added depth" plumbed from other sources, but I wonder how they would feel about actual storylines lifted from other books?

In the context of The Hobbit, this would be things like the the finding of Thrain in the dungeons of the Necromancer, which while mentioned in The Hobbit is much more fully fleshed out in UT. Likewise, most of the White Council activities are only alluded to in The Hobbit. Aragorns sojourn with Ecthelion and Thengel as Thorongil would also be leaving the path of the Hobbit (so to speak). The chance meeting of Gandalf and Thorin would be another such episode that would add to The Hobbit, but is only in UT.

I suppose the question is, how much latitude will the Tolkien Estate give on issues such as these? Since we're still ostensibly only telling the story of "The Hobbit" does the "added depth" constitute fair use? Many of these things are mentioned in the Appendices, which were used extensively in Lord of the Rings. What about the issue of rights to LotR material? Does the license for The Hobbit include rights to material from LotR?

Interesting Times, as Terry Pratchett would say.

[solicitr]

In the context of The Hobbit, this would be things like the the finding of Thrain in the dungeons of the Necromancer, which while mentioned in The Hobbit is much more fully fleshed out in UT. Likewise, most of the White Council activities are only alluded to in The Hobbit. Aragorns sojourn with Ecthelion and Thengel as Thorongil would also be leaving the path of the Hobbit (so to speak). The chance meeting of Gandalf and Thorin would be another such episode that would add to The Hobbit, but is only in UT.

However, each of these is covered in the Appendices to the Lord of the Rings, including a condensed version of The Quest of Erebor (which was orig. intended for Appendix A). Virtually all we know about "Thorongil" likewise comes from Appendix A, and the comment on Denethor's jealousy in UT really just repeats what is said there.

In other words, all of this material is covered by the Lord of the Rings film rights, and the Estate has no say-so.

The 2 Trees Tapestry in Arwen's room
The Ring of Barahir
"the grace of the Valar"
the lamps carried by the elves as they leave Rivendell are similiar to the Feanorian lamps described in the Sil.
The Doors of Durin which include the star of Fëanor, though I know this taken directly from Tolkien's illustration
Merry and Pippin's Noldorian knives

Ring of Barahir: Although its existence is mentioned in the LR, the description Grima gives of it unquestionably is not- I had forgotten that. Of course the Estate made no fuss (actually, CRT has never seen TT in its theatrical form, much less the EE).

Two Trees: mentioned at the beginning of Appendix A, and referenced in the narrative.

"grace of the Valar:" the intercession of the Valar is invoked twice in LR

Feanorian lamps- that's pushing it. I don't see much resemblance, myself, between the movie props and Tolkien's "globes of crystal"

"daggers of the Noldorin"- aside from the grammatical error here, the Noldor are referenced by name twice in LR, besides of course many mentions of High-elves.

[N.E. Brigand]

As far as I recall, the only 'import' from other writing in the script is Saruman's origin-of-Orcs speech, since LR has nothing to say on the subject other than Frodo's speculation that Sauron had warped rather than created them- but from what stock he never attempts to guess.

There's a little more, from Treebeard:

"Maybe you have heard of Trolls? They are mighty strong. But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves" (LotR, II, iv, "Treebeard").

Though again, that's short of the movie's Silmarillion-derived explanation.

[solicitr]

And Treebeard is supposing (incorrectly) that the Enemy 'made' Orcs, which contradicts the PJ Saruman/Silmarillion theory (although it may still have been Tolkien's opinion in early 1942).

[Aravar]

While I'm sure PJ could (and did) get away with a few minor additions from the other works, I'm equally certian that this would be a major issue if there is an expanded version of the Hobbit. I doubt Christopher Tolkien would allow wholesale borrowing from UT.

The only way it could be done, I suppose, is for whoever is producing the film to approach the Estate with the alternatives: 'We can do it canon and pay you lots of money, or make up a whole new backstory ourselves,' and see whether the Estate caves in.

[solicitr]

The only way it could be done, I suppose, is for whoever is producing the film to approach the Estate with the alternatives: 'We can do it canon and pay you lots of money, or make up a whole new backstory ourselves,' and see whether the Estate caves in.

Which the Estate won't. Not even for Jo Rowling money. Trust me on this.

However, virtually everything a hypothetical prequel would require could claim to be "based on" the LR Appendices- indeed that's where virtually all the extant material is to be found, including an abridged version of "The Quest of Erebor."

[axordil]

To whom will control of the estate pass on CJRT's death?

[solicitr]

That's a really vexed question, not least because it involves a lot of things I don't know, like modern British estate law (as opposed to common-law probate), the impact if any of French law (where CRT is domiciled), and the not-well-known structure of the Estate's holdings.

Prior to 1999 it was pretty straightforward, the Estate of JRR Tolkien was a single entity and Christopher was The Man, and could pass on his executorship by will (JRRT's other fiscal executor was his lawyer Frank Williamson, and his firm (Manches) will presumably stay on).

In 1999 however the Estate turned into a multiplicity of interlocking entities, including the Tolkien Trust, the Tolkien Copyright Trust, and the Tolkien Company Ltd. I *think* that this last is the umbrella group, the holding company if you will. It's run by a three-member board at present: CRT, his wife Baillie, and Michael's son Michael. When CRT passes to Mandos the most likely outcome is that the surviving board members will elect his second son Adam (but there's no guarantee- especially since elder son Simon, a lawyer, might choose to raise a stink).

If it is Adam, I shouldn't expect any significant change in policy: he wrote on the Estate website:

In these days of the Internet, and privately produced collectors’ items for sale on eBay, we must make it as clear as possible that the Tolkien Estate never has, and never will authorize the commercialisation or distribution of any works of this type.
The Estate exists to defend the integrity of J.R.R. Tolkien’s writings. Christopher Tolkien's work as his father’s literary executor has always been to publish as faithfully and honestly as possible his father's completed and uncompleted works, without adaptation or embellishment.

[Primula Baggins]

So it sounds as if it will be at least another generation before any new rights to anything are sold. That's good news if it prevents cheap exploitation, but it does also prevent any serious and high-quality adapted works, which I think is a pity. Yes, there are the books, of course, but works such as aldaron (Adam Klein's) opera LEITHIAN will continue to be suppressed or prevented.

[solicitr]

I don't know if they'll go quite that far. After all, Adam's profession is theatre lighting and sound! And since he's only about 38 he comes from a very, very different generation than his father (who used a manual typewriter as long as he could, and now just a pen, rather than a computer).

[Aravar]

That's a really vexed question, not least because it involves a lot of things I don't know, like modern British estate law (as opposed to common-law probate), the impact if any of French law (where CRT is domiciled), and the not-well-known structure of the Estate's holdings.

Prior to 1999 it was pretty straightforward, the Estate of JRR Tolkien was a single entity and Christopher was The Man, and could pass on his executorship by will (JRRT's other fiscal executor was his lawyer Frank Williamson, and his firm (Manches) will presumably stay on).

In 1999 however the Estate turned into a multiplicity of interlocking entities, including the Tolkien Trust, the Tolkien Copyright Trust, and the Tolkien Company Ltd. I *think* that this last is the umbrella group, the holding company if you will. It's run by a three-member board at present: CRT, his wife Baillie, and Michael's son Michael. When CRT passes to Mandos the most likely outcome is that the surviving board members will elect his second son Adam (but there's no guarantee- especially since elder son Simon, a lawyer, might choose to raise a stink).

It's useless to speculate without knowledge of the relevant documents. In any event the Court has statutory powers to appoint new executors.

[solicitr]

Well, we do have this from JRRT's will

’Upon Trust to allow my son Christopher full access to the same in order that he may act as my Literary Executor with full power to publish edit alter rewrite or complete any work of mine which may be unpublished at my death or to destroy the whole or any part or parts of any such unpublished works as he in his absolute discretion may think fit and subject thereto’