Why is TTT the least liked movie?

[solicitr]

Lessee:

1) Gandalf, natch
2) Pippin's apparent death at the end of Book V
3) Frodo/Sam on Orodruin (at least briefly implied)
4) Húrin's supposed death in the Nirnaeth?
5) Nienor/Niniel thinking Túrin dead beside the dragon (ripoff from Romeo and Juliet)
6) Éowyn, briefly
7) Beren (OK, he's really dead, just temporarily)
8) Frodo in Shelob's Lair
9) Bill the Pony (Purina wolf chow, we thought)

Any more?

[Primula Baggins]

Actually, you missed a biggie. Frodo in Moria. Momentary but momentous.

[Alatar]

I remember counting something like 5 for Frodo alone, although some of them are a stretch.

[Frelga]

Soli, very good, and yes, there's more. And I meant in LOTR alone.

I can't now recall if Faramir counted.

[solicitr]

Nah, Faramir was never worse than 'doesn't look like he'll pull through.'

Possibly Frodo on Weathertop, though I never got the idea he was more than wounded. Similarly at the Ford.

Merry and Pippin at Amon Hen is a stretch; there's no serious suggestion that they're dead. If they were the Orcs would hardly have carried them off!

Arguably (in a stretchy way) Théoden having a few words left after his horse fell on him.

M, P & S in the Barrow?

[Frelga]

Nah, Faramir was never worse than 'doesn't look like he'll pull through.

I looked it up, and you are correct. Denethor never actually thought Faramir was dead, in the book. He actually tried to stab him himself!

I'm due for a re-read.

[yovargas]

So many cliches, so little time.

[yovargas]

I like the damn cliff dive. There, I said it.
Now, people can dislike what they dislike and no skin off my nose. But this one has been driving me nutz for some time because it's mentioned so often by so many as such an awful thing. I don't get the magnitude of the dislike! Di offers "it's a cliche" and Alatar "it's just dumb" which, okay, if that's how you but why does that one thing stand out as particularly dumb or cliche?? (More so than, say, "Oh no, the Nazgûl are gonna stab the hobbits!! ...oh wait it's just pillows" or "Oh no the cave troll killed Frodo!! ...oh wait he's completely unharmed" or "Oh no Sam's gonna drown in that river!! ...oh wait Frodo's right there to pull him out" or.......all in FOTR, you might notice. )

But the point of this post is to explain why I think it was a good idea. Put simply, I think just about everything that happens as a result of that change adds to the story or characters:
- Brego rescuing Aragorn. I'm surprised how little this gets mentioned. It's such a small, subtle moment (PJ always gets accused of lacking subtlety, unfairly IMO) but one that says something beautiful about Aragorn. He freed this wild, mad, untamable creature and it came back to him unbidden. It's a Tolkien-esque moment and gives the audience a quiet glimpse as to why Aragorn is our Hero.
- This is more of a subjective, stylistic thing but Aragorn alone and hurt in the wilderness is such a excellent moment to take us back to the Arwen story. The mutual need and longing is augmented on both sides of the stories because the writers found this spot to weave their stories through each other. Certainly Arwen's scenes could have been used otherwise but I believe they are stronger for being complemented by Aragorn's loneliness.
- The obvious one, and I'd bet the reason they did all this in the first place, is that Aragorn gets to see the orc army first. That it's Aragorn that has to bear the message and knows the magnitude of their danger changes the dynamic of a lot of those HD scenes. Aragorn isn't just another soldier amongst the crowd (the fate, storywise that falls to perpetual sidekicks Gimli and Legolas), he's seen what they're up against. PJ also uses this brilliantly to wrench up the incredible tension building up to the battle. The "oh my good, it's so much worse then we thought moments" add a lot to the intense mood of these scenes and they'd have been lost or diminished without Aragorn bringing the dark news.
- The reunions! I don't know about ya'll but the look on Éowyn's face when Aragorn gets back the Evenstar is enough to make it worthwhile. (Her performance is so wonderful!) And Legolas' reaction is one of the few real character moments he gets in the whole trilogy. It's not much but it's a good touch and give overly-wooden Bloom a chance to look like he has a soul. (Gimli, sadly, is as silly and useless as usual.)


But even if you disagree with all of that - and what reasonable person could! - then at least it doesn't hurt the story any so stop whinin' about it!!

[Impenitent]

But the point of this post is to explain why I think it was a good idea. Put simply, I think just about everything that happens as a result of that change adds to the story or characters:

You've pinpointed the very crux of the matter for me: IMNSHO, everything that happens as a result of that is yet more crud in the story!

- Brego rescuing Aragorn. I'm surprised how little this gets mentioned. It's such a small, subtle moment (PJ always gets accused of lacking subtlety, unfairly IMO) but one that says something beautiful about Aragorn. He freed this wild, mad, untamable creature and it came back to him unbidden. It's a Tolkien-esque moment and gives the audience a quiet glimpse as to why Aragorn is our Hero.

Ehm. NO! We get Brego the WonderHorse, who develops a crush on Aragorn after - what? - a 30-second meeting in the stables? Cheesy!

Moreover, he floats down the river, while wearing a heapa clothing, plus sword, knife, heavy boots etc. Well, no, that doesn't happen. One SINKS.

- This is more of a subjective, stylistic thing but Aragorn alone and hurt in the wilderness is such a excellent moment to take us back to the Arwen story. The mutual need and longing is augmented on both sides of the stories because the writers found this spot to weave their stories through each other. Certainly Arwen's scenes could have been used otherwise but I believe they are stronger for being complemented by Aragorn's loneliness.

You said it: Arwen's scenes could have been used otherwise - and still have complemented Aragorn's loneliness and longing. Although I don't think is necessary. The scene which shows us the elfstone around his neck, when Éowyn asks him who gave it to him, is more than adequate.

- The obvious one, and I'd bet the reason they did all this in the first place, is that Aragorn gets to see the orc army first. That it's Aragorn that has to bear the message and knows the magnitude of their danger changes the dynamic of a lot of those HD scenes. Aragorn isn't just another soldier amongst the crowd (the fate, storywise that falls to perpetual sidekicks Gimli and Legolas), he's seen what they're up against. PJ also uses this brilliantly to wrench up the incredible tension building up to the battle. The "oh my good, it's so much worse then we thought moments" add a lot to the intense mood of these scenes and they'd have been lost or diminished without Aragorn bringing the dark news.

Why is this so important? It is more hero-aggrandisement and the intense mood of these scenes could have been achieved equally by so many other means.

- The reunions! I don't know about ya'll but the look on Éowyn's face when Aragorn gets back the Evenstar is enough to make it worthwhile. (Her performance is so wonderful!) And Legolas' reaction is one of the few real character moments he gets in the whole trilogy. It's not much but it's a good touch and give overly-wooden Bloom a chance to look like he has a soul. (Gimli, sadly, is as silly and useless as usual.)

As I've said elsewhere, once you've osgiliated the plot, you are on a path of no return. Yes, these scenes work -- but they are an unnecessary alternative. The interplay between Éowyn and Aragorn does not require it.

As I see it, to devote movie time to this 'alternative' side action steals from the opportunity to devote movie time to scenes which got no screen time at all.

But mostly, my problems are Brego the Wonderhorse; and the incredible floating superhero.

[solicitr]

Moreover, he floats down the river, while wearing a heapa clothing, plus sword, knife, heavy boots etc. Well, no, that doesn't happen. One SINKS

In fact, Viggo nearly drowned filming that scene.

As I see it, to devote movie time to this 'alternative' side action steals from the opportunity to devote movie time to scenes which got no screen time at all.

Ay-men, sister!

[yovargas]

I'm going to take the relative lack of response to mean everybody is quietly agreeing with me.

[Inanna]

I'm going to take the relative lack of response to mean everybody is quietly agreeing with me.

NO! It just means that Impish has said it all!

[vison]

yovargas.

You may be sure that there is ALWAYS one who disagrees, you brat. Watch it.

[Pearly Di]

I agree with Impy on this, Yov.

But even if you disagree with all of that - and what reasonable person could! - then at least it doesn't hurt the story any so stop whinin' about it!!

Well, it didn't hurt the film. And it doesn't hurt the book, because the book is, well, the book.

But I still don't have to like it.

If you're going to delete canon and add additional scenes, those additional scenes must serve some kind of purpose in furthering the story ... more than following canon would have done.

I'm not entirely convinced that was the case here.

[Frelga]

I agree with Impish, soli, Mahima and Di. Quietly.

Although I do like the shot of Aragorn flinging the doors of Methuseld open. And even that makes no sense. Surely there'd be guards who would do it for him. But it looks good.

[Impenitent]

But it looks good.

Yes, I think that was PJ's ultimate criterion! He was working in a visual medium, after all.

[Pearly Di]

Although I do like the shot of Aragorn flinging the doors of Methuseld open. And even that makes no sense. Surely there'd be guards who would do it for him. But it looks good.

No denying that.

I also love, love, LOVE the expression on Éowyn's face as Aragorn rides away after the Warg attack. And I love the music there as well.

And her face when she thinks Aragorn is dead. I so feel for her. I love Movie Éowyn.

Those are just small moments that I love.

But the whole Brego thing is still flippin' stupid and Aragorn's fake death just so annoying. We already have one fake death in TTT, Gandalf's. This is overkill, man.

As I say: I have no objection at ALL to adaptors changing the sacred canon so the story can flow more smoothly. Have at it! But I really don't think that was the case here.

Ah well. Joe and Jane Public still flocked to see it in droves.

[Mrs.Underhill]

Agree with Impish.
I'd say Aragorn off-the-cliff diversion was mostly serving a fannish crush on Aragorn/Viggo by the authors. Seriously, Aragon came out to be the best developed character of the movies, they couldn't get enough of him, and sometimes it was over the top.
But the good part was the kissing of Arwen/horse joke, it always makes me giggle.

But I have to say that all 3 movies were guilty of of over the top Aragorn scenes, not just TTT.

And having just rewatched it, have to say it's still my favorite and I'd still defend it!
Yes, there's bad stuff in there: Gimli, Orcs, stupid Ents, the lack of Faramir, Théoden's exorcism, Aragorn's gratitous scenes.
But I can just FF them, and there's so much goodness in the rest!
Starting with a kick-ass opening with Gandalf's battle with Balrog turned Frodo's dream, and followed by the brilliant interplay of Frodo and Gollum - the more I watch, the more I admire that part. I might be biased as Frodo is my favorite character, and his best character moments are in TTT. But Sam, Pippin and Merry all had good moments, even though it pains me that Sam was made so unlikable in TTT, so angry at Frodo and even disgusted with him. That was so wrong...
A lot of greatness in Rohan scenes - Éowyn, Éomer, Helm's Deep, Elves's Silmarillion moments as they died in that battle, music score, Edoras, the mood setting. I love that part a lot.
Greatness of the Ent's march on Isengard.
I even come to understand Filmamir and feel for him - it's just Faramir is so much better...

[Primula Baggins]

Popping in to say it's good to see you again, Mrs.Underhill!

And, you definitely picked the moments in TTT that I think are high points, too. I need to watch these again.

[sauronsfinger]

I do not know if anyone posted this, but the scores of critics as reported on Rottontomatoes are as follows

FOTR 92% positive
TTT 96% positive
ROTK 94% positive

All are very hight scores, in fact some of the highest numbers for any film in each of those three different years.

It is worth noting that the films most JRRT book fans seem to feel the most positive about got the lowest score while the subject of this thread got the highest score.

I wonder what that means, if anything?