Why is TTT the least liked movie?

[sauronsfinger]

What mammals do not produce energy through the burning of glycogen?

[solicitr]

What reptiles fly and breathe fire?

[Primula Baggins]

Well, there are some facts of physics that transcend physiology, such as that long levers are more efficient than short ones, and bulky muscles get in the way of fluid motion. We could argue biochemistry, but the fact is that I don't think Tolkien thought that far. And, biochemical systems are pretty consistent throughout life on Earth; biological evidence of that exists even in Tolkien, where Elves and Men can interbreed. Though again, I don't think he was thinking that far.

Big lungs and hearts, sure, I can believe that. But it wouldn't be enough, I would think, to allow a Dwarf to keep up with an Elf and a Man. Consider just stride length—Aragorn and Legolas could lope along as you describe, but to cover the same distance with his shorter legs, Gimli would have to move at a run or close to it.

Now let's move on to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

[sauronsfinger]

Energy for muscles is produced by the body burning glycogen. The ability to store large amounts of glycogen in muscles is a mathematical process that is achieved through one thing and only one thing - massive amounts of training. Even something like carbo loading or supplements is only a marginal measure.

Its training, more training, and more training on top of that.

No person - be it man or dwarf - could be an untrained runner and run the equal of more than five full marathons in three days. Tolkien says the ran - so they ran. No person could run the equal of one marathon in one day without training.

They are great books and Tolkien was a great writer. He just blew it on this one detail.

[solicitr]

In that case, neither could the orcs they were chasing. Nor could Shadowfax have done what is impossible for any real horse.

Dwarves are *mythical creatures.* If rings can make people invisible and Words of Command bring stone roofs down on ancient fire-demons, then Dwarves can run/lope/trot a long way.

[Primula Baggins]

And that is ultimately the point. I don't recall ever worrying about this until it was put up on a screen in front of my eyes.

Still, one thing I have always loved about LotR, and don't find in most "fantasy novels" I've ever tried to read, is the grounding in reality. The unreal is possible, but most things are not just grounded in the natural world but familiar. For that reason I'm inclined to try to find "natural" explanations for some things that I might just as well simply accept. I dislike fantasy novels where the impossible can happen because they're fantasy novels—get with the program!—without any scaffolding of logical rules of magic. Tolkien's stinginess with his magic and magical beasts is right after my own heart.

[sauronsfinger]

I agree with Prim. One reason LOTR works so well is that so much of it makes logical sense and they do not push the magic and fantasy at the expense of everything else.

Prim said - for her - it was seeing the Three Hunters on screen that made it not work. When you read, you simply are in that world and you go with it willingly suspending your disbelief.

For me, it was actually being a long distance runner. The whole sequence simply fell apart because I knew it was a physical impossibility.

I would guess that there are many people who have specific knowledge about certain aspects of life who have the same experience with different aspects of fiction. Just because its make believe does not mean it should not make sense.

I have told the story before, but just to say so again to underline this, the scene from TALLADEGA NIGHTS where a racing car goes around the course in reverse gear and wins the race passing everyone else. Ask any mechanic about that.

Things should make sense even if they are make believe.

[Dave_LF]

Remember that Éomer was shocked when he learned what the three had done. The feat may well have been impossible for an ordinary man, elf, and dwarf, but not for the heroes of legend. Also, the stories were probably embellished over the years before Tolkien wrote them down.

[sauronsfinger]

Dave - it was precisely the reaction from Éomer that confirmed for me this was such an impossibility. The revelation that this was some great accomplishment for both a man and an elf is one thing.... but the physiology of a dwarf is something else entirely. If we take Éomer at his word - and the words come from Tolkien himself - this was not normal and a tremendous feat for them.

I might be able to be convinced that there is a really remote outside possibility that in a perfect storm of all things good in their favor, that Legolas and Aragorn might be able to pull it off. But never Gimli for obvious physical reasons.

But thats just how I see it.

I still love the books though.

[Alatar]

Ok, here's my thing. Gollum.

Not the CG, which I thought was great. The kiddie aspect of Sméagol. I disliked him being portrayed as childish. Gollum was great, Sméagol not so much. Peter Woodthorpe's portrayal in the BBC Radio Play still remains my definitive Gollum. He got the duality without the schizophrenics.

And although this is FotR, not TTT, I have to say the Balrog didn't work for me. I know, I'm in the minority, but it just... didn't. Don't ask me why.

No thoughts on this?

[sauronsfinger]

Alatar - before the films came out, I made it a point to stay away from the books for at least the two years - maybe longer sorry but just cannot remember - before FOTR debuted in December of 2001. I made a purposeful decision that I did not want recent memories of the books to get in the way of enjoying the films. I had read them many times over the previous thirty years.

So Gollum - or the Balrog - or other things which may have bothered you or others simply did not have the same impact for me. I never had the problem of comparing the books with the films.

If it did not work for you --- that is all that is important.

[Padme]

I think the Sméagol was off a bit from the books too. In the books he seems more a creepy old man type that would live on the outskirts of town and looked out his windows scowlingly with evil thoughts running through his mind.

[Primula Baggins]

I wonder if PJ's idea was that Gollum had to regress mostly to childhood to find a relatively uncorrupted version of himself?

[Elentári]

It was certainly an attempt to make us feel more sympathy for his character.

[yovargas]

I agree with you, Al, though only on a couple occasions does it really bug me. There are a couple times when Sméagol almost seems like he's supposed to be comic relief which is crazy wrong even if you completely ignore the books. But as a whole, I thought he was great in TTT. (He had some weaker scenes in ROTK IMO).

Because it was a lame movie cliche, Yov (oh look, we've just killed one of our leading men! Hahaha, actually we haven't) , and LotR deserves so much better than lame movie cliches.

Considering Tolkien's love of handy dandy deus ex machinas - ooh, look at those pretty eagles! - I find the stuff fans can get hung up on pretty odd.

[Primula Baggins]

Now, now, now . . . watch the iconoclasm!

[Padme]

Considering Tolkien's love of handy dandy deus ex machinas - ooh, look at those pretty eagles! - I find the stuff fans can get hung up on pretty odd.

The Grand Hippo is wise.

[Alatar]

Probably my favourite Gollum scene is at Osgiliath. He's just in the background, lurking around, but he's excellent.

[Pearly Di]

It was certainly an attempt to make us feel more sympathy for his character.

I always felt sympathy for Gollum. I deeply pitied him, at any rate. I wouldn't have cared to have him at my side though. Ew.

Like Alatar, my definitive Gollum is Peter Woodthorpe from the BBC LotR.

But I have no major complaints about Movie Gollum.

I thought the Balrog was fantastic.

Considering Tolkien's love of handy dandy deus ex machinas - ooh, look at those pretty eagles! - I find the stuff fans can get hung up on pretty odd.

OK, but the Eagles are awesome and Aragorn's cliff dive is still a lame movie cliche.

[Frelga]

Besides, there's no need to add another Dead! Not dead! scene to those already in canon. I once posted this as a trivia question in books, asking for five of those. I think we came up with more.