It is currently Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:19 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 106 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:54 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 32720
Yup!

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:23 pm 
Offline
Wrong within normal parameters
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:59 am
Posts: 4220
Location: The other side of Michigan
Anduril wrote:
And European theme aside, the Dúnedain are simply in the wrong geographical region to have dark skin.

Are they? I'm not sure the latitude of Númenor is ever specified (though I also wouldn't be surprised to learn otherwise), but on the real Earth at least, Native Americans, Mongolians, the Inuit, the Maori, and Tasmanian aboriginals are all more heavily pigmented than Europeans, in some cases much more so, despite originating from comparable or even higher latitudes. There is certainly a tendency toward lighter skin as you move away from the equator, but it's by no means absolute.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:32 pm 
Offline
Aagragaah
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:31 pm
Posts: 12828
Location: Out on the banks
Right, Dave. Didn't Tolkien (?) say Minas-Tirith was about where Florence is?

Also, Gondor was basically an empire, with a minority of Numenorian refugees from the ships and the rest of the population the indigenous people they colonized. Assuming that only white people were in position of authority throughout history implies very unflattering things about the supposed good guys.

P. S. I read recently that the Inuit are unique for retaining high melanin content through the year while living in the extreme North, and that is enabled by their diet, which is high in vitamin D.

_________________
Image
‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:20 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:39 am
Posts: 355
"Mixed race", "non-white" or "white" are rather anachronistic and utterly reductionist terms for Middle-earth (and the real world).

The magnitude of phenotypic differences in humans simply cannot be grasped through the limited, nationalistic prism of the contemporary U.S. Census. In a world before globalization (and in most parts of even a globalized planet), groups of people look different not just from continent to continent, but from region to region, peninsula to peninsula, valley to valley. "Ethnic Europeans" alone are an extremely diverse group of people. North Italians look markedly different from Sicilians; South Germans look different from North Germans, etc. Even more phenotypic differences can be seen among "Sub-Saharan Africans": Hausa, Xhosa, or Oromo are an extremely diverse groups of people, yet they are still simply conceptualized (and marginalized) as "black" from an American (and European) perspective.

Which brings us to the human/hobbit phenotypes of Middle-earth. Historically, terms such as "swarthy" or "browner of skin" (which is the term used for the Harfoots in LOTR) were not limited to "non-European peoples". A medieval or early-modern Englishman could describe a Frenchman or even a Swede (!) as rather swarthy. Consider this excerpt from Benjamin Franklin's Observations Concerning the Increase of Mankind, Peopling of Countries, etc. for example:

"All Africa is black or tawny. Asia chiefly tawny. America (exclusive of the new comers) wholly so. And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes are generally of what we call a swarthy complexion ; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English make the principal body of white people on the face of the earth."

In other words: If one takes Middle-earth serious as a pre-modern, mythic world, it is much more plausible to view the Harfoots as phenotypically resembling for example Welsh people or Northern Frenchmen; and Forlong and his men maybe (but not necessarily) resembling Basques.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 3:10 pm
Posts: 93
All good points... but I was reacting to the article which suggested Morgan Freeman as Gandalf, Idris Elba as Aragorn and the Korean guy from the Fast and Furious movies as Legolas. That's just going too far since it would require remodeling Middle-earth too much, at which point it ceases to be Middle-earth. If you're going to get such actors, put them in appropriate roles like the Blue Wizards and their followers.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:02 pm 
Offline
Aagragaah
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:31 pm
Posts: 12828
Location: Out on the banks
Wizards and Elves have to be White, too? I can see Gondor being run by racists (all too easily, right now), but I don't think it's fair to cast Eru as one.

_________________
Image
‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 106 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group