Film Osgiliation from The Children of Húrin discussion

[Smaug's voice]

[Note: I spilt this off from the discussion about The Children of Húrin in the Shibboleth forum - VtF]


Nope, I don't think he needs that. Extended FotR is just terrific.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I've never understood why people glorify FOTR so much. I think it has some of the worst (and most OTT) scenes of the five films so far. Wizard Fu. The falling stairs of Moria and the ridiculous spider Orcs (and the OTT cave troll and Watcher battles), the horrible Weathertop scene, just to name a few off the top of my heads.

[Smaug's voice]

Um, because most of the scenes you are stating are not examples of OTTness - which means to exaggerate something to great proportions.

Wizard fu is clumsy but not OTT - Tolkien never describes how Saruman captures Gandalf. Since we have no indication of how it went, we cannot say how much exaggerated it is. That is simply PJ's interpretation, whether good or bad.
Surprisingly, the falling stairs of Moria never hit me as OTT until a few months ago when you mentioned it. In any case, it is a hundred times less in-your-face OTTness compared to the GoblinTown chase or the Smaug-chase or especially the barrels.

Please explain how the cavetroll and the Watcher is OTT, based on the definition? Since in terms of physics, those were perfectly believable scenes.

I like the Weathertop scene, though I know you (and PtB) despise it - so I won't go into that.

Also, FotR may have it's OTTness but it has far more sublime moments - original "Tolkien" moments - than the AUJ and DOS EEs combined. (that is a foretelling)

[Pearly Di]

I've never understood why people glorify FOTR so much. I think it has some of the worst (and most OTT) scenes of the five films so far. Wizard Fu. The falling stairs of Moria and the ridiculous spider Orcs (and the OTT cave troll and Watcher battles), the horrible Weathertop scene, just to name a few off the top of my heads.

I think they like it best because it was the first film, and a genuinely magical viewing experience (for many, including me). And because it's the most faithful: it follows the basic storyline (with omissions, compressions and embellishments, naturally, which is what any adaptation does ... hello, Game of Thrones) in the same linear way as canon. I think that's why.

FotR is not perfect. By far my biggest beef, far exceeding any 'wizard fu' quibbles, is Frodo's characterisation. But its flaws (by which I mainly mean PJ-excesses) are not so bad (IMO) as some of the PJ-excesses in TTT and RotK ... and I refer to all the Extended Editions as well as the theatrical editions. I love the FotR:EE but the RotK:EE really tries my patience. Too long, too fraught, too over-wrought.

I think that TTT is the best. Seriously. Until Osgiliath.

I totally agree with Elen on 'a gritty aesthetic and restraint', that would be essential for any treatment of CoH. And I wished for more of it in the LotR Trilogy!

(Don't mind my own thread straying into a film discussion of sorts, by the way.)

[kzer_za]

Cave Troll is a great scene, Frodo's slo-mo agony aside. The Watcher is fine. I like the falling stairs, though we've gone around this trail before so I won't get into it. Wizard-fu is a bit much but, as SV mentioned, some sort of physical confrontation is inevitable (all Gandalf says in the book is "they took me") and it's really pretty tame and low-key as movie wizard fights go. Weathertop could have been better (like having Frodo put up more resistance) but it still works, don't have a major problem with it.

And FotR is pretty light on the Legolas stunts and bad comedy, though I still think the machine-gun arrows at Amon Hen are silly. I'm not sure if it's the best, but it's the most consistent.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Please explain how the cavetroll and the Watcher is OTT, based on the definition?

At the risk of appearing (to use PtB's term) undiplomatic, they are OTT because they are over the top, based on the very definition that you provided. They exaggerate the equivalent scenes from the book to great proportions. The Watcher in particular is ridiculous; it belongs in Ray Harryhausen monster movie, not LOTR. I admit I have a soft spot for the cave troll, particularly when he dies, but what could be a greater exaggeration than taking a brief mention of a creature that is almost completely unseen and turning it into a long fight scene complete with OTT Legolas stunt and OTT Frodo fake slow motion fake death.

[yovargas]

Both of those scenes are pretty darn restrained compared to what PJ would offer for us in the future, both compared to the books and just as action scenes in general. I don't mind many of the bigger sequences PJ has thrown at us (though several suck royally) but it probably is fair to say that FOTR has been the most mellow of the movies.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I don't agree, but that doesn't matter.

[Jude]

Count me among the people who were not bothered at all by the wizard duel. The book description is rather vague, almost absent, and I can't believe that Gandalf wouldn't put up a fight, knowing what was at stake (the life of his friend Frodo, not to mention the fate of the entire world).

The Weathertop scene was disappointing compared to the book, but if I had never read the book I wouldn't see anything wrong with it (apart from the silly throw-the-torch-at-the-Nazgûl thingie).

[Voronwë the Faithful]

It's probably time to split off the discussion of the films from this thread.

[Smaug's voice]

Honestly, if you compare the exorcism of Théoden, Denethor's death, scrubby bubbles, Goblintown, Stone giants, the barrels, Bilbo-Smaug conversation andthe dwarf-Smaug confrontation to their book counterparts these are far more OTT than anything in FotR, save perhaps, alien Galadriel.
(and still not agreed regarding the OTTness of the cavetroll or watcher)

[Passdagas the Brown]

I can't answer which LOTR film I like best. I just don't know. I do know that there's a tie between the beginning of FOTR (right up until the ridiculous Merry and Pippin run into Frodo and Sam in a cornfield scene), the first half of TTT (before Helm's Deep and before Osgiliath), the scenes on Mt Doom, and Gandalf's light attack on the flying Nazgûl. Those are my favorite sections of the LOTR films, and some of those scenes are my favorite in ALL cinema.

But the three films, as wholes, are IMO not that good.

[axordil]

My vote is for German Expressionism for a CoH movie. Possibly in black and white. Can't get bleaker than that.

[Passdagas the Brown]

I'm partial to an Italian neorealist version told from the perspective of Mîm the dwarf.

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Cursed since the day he was born, he lived, and he suffered.