Tolkien Book to Jackson Script: The Medium and the Message

[Smaug's voice]

Tom Shippey speaks on the transformation from Tolkien's book to PJ's LOTR films.

http://www.swarthmore.edu/news-events/t ... nd-message

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I missed this because I was out of town. Thanks for sharing this, SV! I will listen to it when I have the time.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Despite the fact that I enjoyed DoS on its merits as a PJ film, I can't get interested in the process of adaptation this time around. The scripts are so weak, that it's almost not worth the bother. Sort of like emerging from a seriously bad or mediocre film, and hearing people over analyzing it. PJ makes roller coaster blockbusters out of Tolkien. That's about it! I even feel silly about spending so much time defending it earlier. Upon a few more re-watches (and after spending time watching other things with good scripts), it really does feel a bit empty...Balin really is one of the few bright spots.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

With all due respect, I'll take Shippey's opinion over yours.

[Passdagas the Brown]

And you don't have much of a knack for diplomacy, it seems!

Though of course, I was talking about the Hobbit films, while Shippey's comments are about the LOTR adaptation process. Perhaps even Shippey isn't that interested in how the Hobbit was translated for the big screen...

[Smaug's voice]

Despite the
fact that I enjoyed DoS on its merits as a PJ film, I can't get
interested in the process of adaptation this time around. The scripts
are so weak, that it's almost not worth the bother. Sort of like
emerging from a seriously bad or mediocre film, and hearing people over
analyzing it. PJ makes roller coaster blockbusters out of Tolkien.
That's about it! I even feel silly about spending so much time defending
it earlier. Upon a few more re-watches (and after spending time
watching other things with good scripts), it really does feel a bit
empty...Balin really is one of the few bright spots.

Kind of odd, your turn around (I suspect this is "that" phase) but each to their own.
The thread is on LotR non the less.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Not so much a turnaround. I think that DoS may simply not hold up to repeat viewings that well. I enjoyed it the first three times I watched it. The fourth time broke the spell, I suppose (as has, perhaps, viewing other well-done fantasy between then and now - won't say what as I'll incur the wrath of Voronwë!).

That said, I still find DoS to be PJ's most artistically consistent Middle Earth film to date. Unlike the other films, it doesn't have as much of an identity crisis...

And yes, I acknowledged that Shippey was talking about LOTR. I just wanted to make the point that the process of adapting LOTR from book to script was interesting to me, that same process for TH is not. Namely, I think, because the scripts seem to take significant back seat this time around. Either that, or as I've often contended, PB is a bad scriptwriter, who is a slave to screenwriting 101 techniques, and her hand was more prominent than Fran's this time around...

Anyway, Shippey's perspective on LOTR is very much worth listening to!

[kzer_za]

One disappointment I have with the Hobbit scripts is that Tolkien's dialogue has been underused. I expected that with the way they transposed Tolkien's words all around LotR (sometimes with slight modifications), they would mine LotR for good lines they hadn't used yet and put them in The Hobbit. Unfortunately PJ, Fran, and Philippa didn't take advantage of this opportunity.

But at least the jokes are better.

[Passdagas the Brown]

The jokes have been better, I must say. I don't remember one genuinely funny moment from LOTR, apart from the moments between Frodo and Gandalf on the cart at the beginning of FOTR.

[Smaug's voice]

Personally, I think the only thing the TH films are better from LotR at is the jokes and humor.

People say, the acting has been better.
I think the acting in LotR is equally good. I only recently finished an LotR (EE) marathon. It's a fact that LotR has a much larger cast than TH, so there are bound to be some average ones. Barring Sir Ian and sir Lee, I though Viggo, Bean, Karl Urban, Miranda Otto, Bernard Hill (vastly underrated imo) were exceptional.
John Noble was excellent too in the role he was given to play (which was definitely NOT Denethor)


In everything else, LotR beats TH.

[Passdagas the Brown]

IMO, Karl Urban and Bernard Hill were the best actors in LOTR, next to McKellen. Urban's Éomer, in particular, is just brimming with Rohirric energy. A very compelling performance. With his small amount of screen time, he was able to make a greater impression than a lot of the main cast. And in a good way.

In the Hobbit, I think Stott has been brilliant, Freeman has been excellent, McKellen has been great, and Evans may have stolen the show. Pace and Lilly were also good, and Armitage and Turner are passable. But otherwise, the acting has been pretty subpar. The rest of the dwarves, for example, are sometimes laughably bad in their delivery.

P.S. And please do not open up old wounds by discussing PJ's version of Denethor. I was almost starting to forget! Far worse, IMO, than anything in the first two Hobbit films.

[Smaug's voice]

IMO, Karl Urban and Bernard Hill were the best actors in LOTR, next to McKellen. Urban's Éomer, in particular, is just brimming with Rohirric energy. A very compelling performance. With his small amount of screen time, he was able to make a greater impression than a lot of the main cast. And in a good way.

I would also include Miranda Otto's Éowyn. She was less cold than in the book, but I think she was excellent (though much of her good dialogues from the book were cut. )

ETA: How could I forget Brad Dourif's Grima? I don't like his make-up, but he was classic.

In the Hobbit, I think Stott has been brilliant, Freeman has been excellent, McKellen has been great, and Evans may have stolen the show.

Yes, that's just about it.

P.S. And please do not open up old wounds by discussing PJ's version of Denethor. I was almost starting to forget! Far worse, IMO, than anything in the first two Hobbit films.

I don't think there is any Denethor in PJ's LotR.
But if we are talking about acting, Noble's performance was spot on for the mad character he was given to portray. (repeat, not Denethor)

[Passdagas the Brown]

SV,

I know a lot of people liked Otto's Éowyn, but I feel she was portrayed as far too soft (and occasionally bordering on dim-witted). Éowyn was certainly taken with Aragorn in the books, but she wasn't openly, pathetically and almost debilitatingly infatuated in the way that she seemed to be in the film. And she had a meekness that book Éowyn didn't have (note how meekly she approaches Aragorn in the stables, and in the EE scene with the soup). I thought it strange that modern filmmakers would heighten the "stereotypically female" aspects of a character that Tolkien had drawn in what might be perceived as less stereotypically female. It struck me as a regression.

This sounds like a harsher assessment than it is. Otto generally did a fine job. But I was slightly disappointed for the reasons above.

[Smaug's voice]

I know a lot of people liked Otto's Éowyn, but I feel she was portrayed as far too soft (and occasionally bordering on dim-witted). Éowyn was certainly taken with Aragorn in the books, but she wasn't openly, pathetically and almost debilitatingly infatuated in the way that she seemed to be in the film. And she had a meekness that book Éowyn didn't have (note how meekly she approaches Aragorn in the stables). I thought it strange that modern filmmakers would heighten the "stereotypically female" aspects of a character that Tolkien had drawn in what might be perceived as less stereotypically female. It struck me as a regression.

True. The same qualities, Tauriel has too.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Urban's Éomer, in particular, is just brimming with Rohirric energy. A very compelling performance. With his small amount of screen time, he was able to make a greater impression than a lot of the main cast. And in a good way.

I very much agree with this! And I'll add in a side note that I thought that Urban was the only actor in the Star Trek reboot films that has captured the spirit of the original character, which is impressive because Dr. McCoy is as different a character from Éomer as I could imagine.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Amen to that. IMO, Karl Urban is one of the best and possibly underrated youngish actors in mainstream film today.

[Beutlin]

"Mama is not the law. I am the law!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl_sRb0uQ7A

[Passdagas the Brown]

I know a lot of people liked Otto's Éowyn, but I feel she was portrayed as far too soft (and occasionally bordering on dim-witted). Éowyn was certainly taken with Aragorn in the books, but she wasn't openly, pathetically and almost debilitatingly infatuated in the way that she seemed to be in the film. And she had a meekness that book Éowyn didn't have (note how meekly she approaches Aragorn in the stables). I thought it strange that modern filmmakers would heighten the "stereotypically female" aspects of a character that Tolkien had drawn in what might be perceived as less stereotypically female. It struck me as a regression.

True. The same qualities, Tauriel has too.

I actually thought Lilly's Tauriel was more Éowyn-esque than Otto's Éowyn! Tauriel had a soft side, so to speak (as do we all), but never did she come across as vulnerable or pathetic, as Otto's Éowyn did on a few occasions. Overall, I would have loved to have seen a stronger and colder Éowyn in the films.

Reboot 2020!

[Passdagas the Brown]

"Mama is not the law. I am the law!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl_sRb0uQ7A

Yeah!

[Smaug's voice]

All the same, I cannot think of any scene where Éowyn appears more girly and meek than Tauriel does. (I am speaking about the TEs obviously)

And I'll join in with the cheering for urban. Wish he had some more scenes.