Tolkien Book to Jackson Script: The Medium and the Message

[Passdagas the Brown]

When does Tauriel appear meek? Did we watch the same film? She was confident and fearless throughout. She expressed pain at Thranduil's contempt for her relationship with Legolas, waxed poetic with Kili, and feared for his life, but I didn't see any meekness in any of that. Otto's Éowyn, on the other hand, interchanged between "jello" and "frightened mouse" around Aragorn, apart from the sword fight scene in Meduseld. A lot of meekness in her portrayal (which is why I think certain chauvinists who used to post here liked her portrayal the best, despite disliking most of the other characterizations.)

[Beutlin]

There were “chauvinists” on this forum who loved Miranda Otto’s portrayal of Éowyn?

[Passdagas the Brown]

Not worth going there. The person can no longer post here, and that is just my personal assessment of him based on a long record of posting here and at TORC. Water under the bridge.

[kzer_za]

Otto's Éowyn, on the other hand, interchanged between "jello" and "frightened mouse" around Aragorn, apart from the sword fight scene in Meduseld. A lot of meekness in her portrayal (which is why I think certain chauvinists who used to post here liked her portrayal the best, despite disliking most of the other characterizations.)

Well, lots of men and women to act that way around people they're interested in. Even some people who are quite strong and confident in other areas of life can get nervous and feel like an idiot around someone they like! The books really don't give us much detail on her interactions with Aragorn, so I think it's a legitimate interpretation.

Also note that she doesn't talk to Aragorn about it in the book until the last minute when she might never see him again - she's pretty reserved about her feelings up till then. If anything, she's generally more forward and flirtatious in the movies (In fact, I occasionally see people say movie Éowyn is a hussy throwing herself at an engaged man - I think this is ridiculous).

And on the male side, Sam seems nervous and helpless with Rosie.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Otto's Éowyn, on the other hand, interchanged between "jello" and "frightened mouse" around Aragorn, apart from the sword fight scene in Meduseld. A lot of meekness in her portrayal (which is why I think certain chauvinists who used to post here liked her portrayal the best, despite disliking most of the other characterizations.)

Well, lots of men and women to act that way around people they're interested in. Even some people who are quite strong and confident in other areas of life can get nervous and feel like an idiot around someone they like! The books really don't give us much detail on her interactions with Aragorn, so I think it's a legitimate interpretation.

Also note that she doesn't talk to Aragorn about it in the book until the last minute when she might never see him again - she's pretty reserved about her feelings up till then. If anything, she's generally more forward and flirtatious in the movies (In fact, I occasionally see people say movie Éowyn is a hussy throwing herself at an engaged man - I think this is ridiculous).

And on the male side, Sam seems nervous and helpless with Rosie.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of that. But I interpret Éowyn's steely reservation as strength in the book. She was a leader of men and women in the book, and could not afford to act like a blubbering teenager in love. I think PB and J significantly diminished the strength of her character, making her seem far more girlish and immature than she was in the text. She was a shieldmaiden of a great house, not a meekly flirtatious adolescent.

[Smaug's voice]

When does Tauriel appear meek? Did we watch the same film? She was confident and fearless throughout. She expressed pain at Thranduil's contempt for her relationship with Legolas, waxed poetic with Kili, and feared for his life, but I didn't see any meekness in any of that. Otto's Éowyn, on the other hand, interchanged between "jello" and "frightened mouse" around Aragorn, apart from the sword fight scene in Meduseld. A lot of meekness in her portrayal (which is why I think certain chauvinists who used to post here liked her portrayal the best, despite disliking most of the other characterizations.)

Tauriel appears meek in the short scene with Thranduil.
The same when Kili confesses to her.

The only scene where Éowyn comes out as meek or stereotypically feminine, is when she offers the drink to Aragorn in RotK. (again, talking about the TE here)

Otto's singing and expression was phenomenal in Theodred's funeral.Lilly has yet to put forward that kind of acting, even though I think she has acted well so far. (apart from two scenes, which were the worst acting from TH)

And I am no chauvinist, I can assure you.

[Passdagas the Brown]

I'm certainly not accusing anyone of being a chauvinist for enjoying Otto's performance! I was referring to someone who seemed to hate everything about PJ's films, but loved Otto's performance - and gave reasons for that which seemed to me to indicate chauvinism. He also made chauvinist statements on other topics. My comment there was about one person only.

Having said that, I wonder if we are using the same definition of meek. Here's one:

quiet, gentle, and easily imposed on; submissive.

Now Tauriel temporarily submits to Thranduil's authority (and rebels against him immediately thereafter), and she opens up to Kili, but in none of that does her character appear submissive and "easily imposed on."

Correct me if I am wrong, but I feel you are conflating "showing emotion" with "meekness."

[Smaug's voice]

Now Tauriel temporarily submits to Thranduil's authority (and rebels against him immediately thereafter), and she opens up to Kili, but in none of that does her character appear submissive and "easily imposed on."

Correct me if I am wrong, but I feel you are conflating "showing emotion" with "meekness."

Yes, I meant "submissive" only.
Tauriel rebels against Thranduil later. But in that specific scene, she appears submissive and lets him overcome her easily.
Éowyn on the other hand, I cannot remember a single moment when she succumbs to someone else's authority in the films except for King Théoden's during the warg attack; which seems logical enough there as it was an emergency. In RotK Théoden asks Éowyn to rule Edoras and just like Tauriel, she defies him by riding to Minas Tirith. Again, in RotK Éomer warns her that war was the province of men and that she should not think about it. Her reaction just after that is of one who is keen on proving everyone else wrong; that is not submissive/meek at all.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Er, Thranduil is her King, her boss, her commander in chief. She's not being submissive, she's doing what she has to do! She doesn't have much choice in the matter, and yes, as you mention, she soon after rebels against his command (risking her life in the process). I can't believe you would use that as an example of her characters' submissiveness. It just doesn't fly.

Meekness is not about a character, in a particular situation, submitting to the authority of an authority figure out of necessity. That's just reality. Meekness is a personality trait. In a number of scenes - in the stables, on the road to Helm's Deep where she shyly asks about Aragorn's necklace and brings him soup, and generally through her delivery (which shows a lot of under-confidence) she presents a shyness, meekness and open vulnerability towards Aragorn that, IMO, does damage to her integrity as a leader of the Rohirrim.

In short, Otto's Éowyn, to me, comes across as a schoolteacher rather than a shield maiden. That's not a bad kind of person to be, but it's not Éowyn.

[Smaug's voice]

Er, Thranduil is her King, her boss, her commander in chief. She's not being submissive, she's doing what she has to do!

It is not the fact that she gives in, which makes her submissive. It is how she gives in, how she expresses it. She shyly accepts what Thranduil has to say, with (IIRC) tears held back in her eyes. I see the same at times in her interactions with Kili.
But these are small points. I am not saying Tauriel is not a confident female character, the same way I am not saying Otto's Éowyn is not. Just that she is not anymore meek than Otto's Éowyn appears (to me atleast).

In a number of scenes - in the stables, on the road to Helm's Deep where she shyly asks about Aragorn's necklace and brings him soup, and generally through her delivery (which shows a lot of under-confidence) she presents a shyness, meekness and open vulnerability towards Aragorn that, IMO, does damage to her integrity as a leader of the Rohirrim.

And yet, none of those scenes are in the TE which I am specifically speaking of; simply because we have yet to see more of Tauriel, whether in the EE or movie 3.
I have no idea how she appears shy when she asks Aragorn about his necklace. She isn't overtly cold, that doesn't mean she is overtly submissive.
Moreover, shyness does not mean submissiveness. (I am shy but not submissive)
In that I agree, Éowyn is portrayed as more shy and feminine than she is in the book. But not submissive.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, I'm afraid. Since we clearly have seen the two characters in different light.

[Pearly Di]

I actually thought Lilly's Tauriel was more Éowyn-esque than Otto's Éowyn! Tauriel had a soft side, so to speak (as do we all), but never did she come across as vulnerable or pathetic, as Otto's Éowyn did on a few occasions. Overall, I would have loved to have seen a stronger and colder Éowyn in the films.

I agree with you about Tauriel being Éowyn-esque. I love Movie Éowyn though, because for a long time I found Book Éowyn hard to love. I admired and respected her, sure (who wouldn't?) but I didn't love her ... so the softer Movie Éowyn appealed to me. Miranda's performance is very winsome. But she is not wholly meek - I find Movie Éowyn a pretty strong character actually, after all we see her leading her people to Helm's Deep. It's just that Book Éowyn is 'stronger and colder'. And I didn't find Movie Éowyn's love for Movie Aragorn pathetic ... thanks to the quality of Miranda's acting.

Besides ... Book Éowyn makes herself pretty vulnerable before Aragorn when she pleads with him before the doors of Meduseld not to go to the Dwimorberg. She pretty much declares her love for him openly, there.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Yes, though she holds out until then! I felt that movie Éowyn let her guard down far too quickly.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Even when Éowyn declares her love for Aragorn she is not being submissive so much as succumbing despite her own formidable will. The coldly formal language that she uses in declaring such raw emotion is incredibly powerful. One of the most affecting parts of the whole vast work, in my opinion.

[Passdagas the Brown]

V-man,

Couldn't agree more. There's nothing "doughy" about book Éowyn in that moment, that's for sure. In the equivalent scene in the film, she practically breaks down (though to be fair to the Otto version, in the film she is alone with Aragorn, while in the book lots of people are present and she's trying to maintain a public face).

I also remember being floored by that scene in the book. One of those tragic moments in literature that are permanently etched in my mind. The horror she expresses is also far more frightening than the actual Paths of the Dead themselves! Wish that could have been captured somehow in the film.