Biggest concern about TH: BOTFA

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm not seriously worried that they will actually do the Smaug zombie thing that some people are concerned about; that's not going to happen (though I would not be surprised, or even disappointed, if Azog turned out to have been necromanced). Nor am I concerned about the film being a CGI battle fest chock full of ridiculous stunts by Legolas and Tauriel (and maybe Thorin, Kili, Dain, and Beorn). That will happen, and its going to be great, so long as Jackson stays true to himself, as he mostly did in DoS.

So what am I concerned about, enough to be worried that the film will be a giant disappointment? The politics of Sauron and the intersection of Dol Guldur and the BOFA. I am having a very hard time picturing how they will pull this off in a way that doesn't seem completely ridiculous. The default choice, of course, would be to follow the story created by Tolkien as much as possible. If they do that, the result should be the appearance of Sauron being defeated and driven out of Dol Guldur. But we know that (unlike in the book) the main Orc armies at the BOFA will be Sauron's forces from Dol Guldur, under the command of Azog and probably Bolg. It will seem awfully strange and anticlimactic for that army to be the leftover from Sauron's apparent defeat. But it will be just as strange and difficult to digest for Sauron not to be at least apparently defeated at Dol Guldur. And (despite Benedict's odd comment back when he was first cast) having Sauron himself at the BOFA is a complete nonstarter.

Any ideas as to how they can pull this off in a way that at all works?

[JewelSong]

The default choice, of course, would be to follow the story created by Tolkien...

Why would they start now?

[Primula Baggins]

Would it be possible to have the apparent defeat of Sauron follow the BotFA? (I'm sorry if this is a stupid question for story reasons—it's been a couple of years since I last read The Hobbit, and that was only my second complete reading ever.) But if it were possible to tell it that way, it would better follow the logic of PJ's way of telling this kind of story (defeat the boss last thing on the level ) and would allow an ominous ending bridging into the ominous beginning of FotR.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The problem with that idea is that Gandalf needs to be part of the Dol Guldur battle and apparent defeat of Sauron -- and he needs to be part of the BoFA. Could they arrange it so that Gandalf is rescued/escapes from Dol Guldur, goes to Erebor and is part of the BoFA, and then returns to Dol Guldur to help drive out Sauron? In a way that makes sense? I can't see it, though maybe it would be possible.

Jewel, my initial inclination was to ignore your comment, since there is nothing that I could say that is going to influence your opinion (which is fine), but in my opinion (and I think I have some credibility as someone knowledgeable about Tolkien), the Hobbit films thus far have stuck to Tolkien's story a lot more than you and other critics credit, despite the obvious additions and deviations. More so in some ways than the LOTR films (sorry SV).

[Passdagas the Brown]

The problem with that idea is that Gandalf needs to be part of the Dol Guldur battle and apparent defeat of Sauron

Does he? This is an assumption worth digging into.

Gandalf could escape, send word to the White Council, and then head to Erebor. The destruction of Dol Guldur could then happen sans Gandalf. This is certainly not book canon, but we are also certainly not expecting PJ to adhere to book canon anymore.

[Smaug's voice]

We disagree on that largely, but I do
say TH follows the basic structure of the book. (only basic!)

Solutions:

1) Radagast rapid bunny ride!
2) Gandalf has been excluded from BoFA. Or atleast he will arrive midway, not before. (cue; Helms Deep. Hey another foreshadowing? PJ will dig it. )
3) Gandalf is injured. Galadriel asks Radagast to keep him safe while the WC are about to battle it out. But Gandalf, now knowing about Sauron's armies at Erebor, heads of for BOFA, believing the WC would be able to manage Sauron.


Hmm. None of them believable.

[Passdagas the Brown]

The consequences of merging the Mt. Gundabad orcs with Sauron's army will cause significant problems, IMO.

All I can hope for at this point is that BoFA is visually compelling, and that the major deaths are impactful.

But for the most part, the main reason I am anticipating this film is because of the Iron Hill dwarves. This is going to be more dwarves than we've ever seen before!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The problem with that idea is that Gandalf needs to be part of the Dol Guldur battle and apparent defeat of Sauron

Does he? This is an assumption worth digging into.

Gandalf could escape, send word to the White Council, and then head to Erebor. The destruction of Dol Guldur could then happen sans Gandalf. This is certainly not book canon, but we are also certainly not expecting PJ to adhere to book canon anymore.

I actually rather like this idea, though I doubt it will happen.

[Elentári]

The problem with that idea is that Gandalf needs to be part of the Dol Guldur battle and apparent defeat of Sauron

Does he? This is an assumption worth digging into.

Gandalf could escape, send word to the White Council, and then head to Erebor. The destruction of Dol Guldur could then happen sans Gandalf. This is certainly not book canon, but we are also certainly not expecting PJ to adhere to book canon anymore.

I actually rather like this idea, though I doubt it will happen.

Gandalf could escape - I guess the original scenario was that Thrain might have helped him....but that seems highly unlikely now.

Then we have the early set reports where Galadriel was spotted carrying a Gandalf dummy from the ruins...who knows if that is still the current approach or if that idea has been ditched also. If it is still the way things will go, then yes, injured Gandalf may jet off by eagle to the environs of Dale and arrive in time to stop Thorin doing Bilbo in!

[Smaug's voice]

Oh! I forgot the eagles!!
Okay, I am seriously convinced now. He's going to arrive via eagles.

[Passdagas the Brown]

An early vlog shows Gandalf riding across a barren landscape on a horse in an area that was allegedly used as part of the Desolation of Smaug. We also know a scene was filmed between Gandalf and Radagast where Gandalf tells him he needs a horse. This suggest to me that Gandalf will arrive at the BoFA on a horse...

Though given how much things have changed, it wouldn't be too difficult for PJ to plop Gandalf on some eagles!

[Smaug's voice]

PJ does know how to present the eagles as deux ex machina.

I didn't know anything about Gandalf riding on a horse. Can you give the link to the vlog if you find it?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I would be willing to bet money that Gandalf will not arrive at the BoFA with the eagles. The bunny sled is more likely than that, but not much. A horse is the most likely.

[Elentári]

Yes, I remember the early v-log that had the audio track of Gandalf telling Radagast he needed a horse. There's a chance that may have been from when there were only two movies, and would have been placed after Gandalf and Radagast had explored the High Fells, or even DG. Unless he gets Shadowfax, I can't see a horse being able to get Gandalf to Dale in time unless the assault on DG takes place considerably before the Bo5A.

Then there's the published image of Gandalf and Radagast on the Bunny Sled, and a clip in rehearsal of a pacing, bruised Gandalf telling Radagast what he's seen in DG of Sauron's army and the Council must be informed...that again could be from an earlier idea where Gandalf escapes more easily but even that could have been discarded by now. I guess it boils down to whether Gandalf escapes independently of the WC attack on DG, or whether he is going to be rescued as part of it, which would put his regaining his freedom much closer in time to the Bo5A. With so much left to fit into this final movie, I'm thinking events may be condensed...

[Passdagas the Brown]

It's one of the early "on location" vlogs. Will take a while to find, I imagine, but I'll try!

[Elentári]

Could it have been Ganadalf riding one of Beorn's ponies after he leaves the Dwarves? I don't remember it either...

The Radagast-Gandalf scene was the V-log, I think, where PJ wraps principal photography...it was literally the last shots filmed before the wrap party. Radagast's design hadn't been revealed so McCoy was blurred out in all the photos, and we only heard the audio of the scene...

The other clip I mentioned in my previous post can be found here:

viewtopic.php?p=278570#278570

I think this might precede getting on the bunny sled...

[JewelSong]

Jewel, my initial inclination was to ignore your comment, since there is nothing that I could say that is going to influence your opinion (which is fine), but in my opinion (and I think I have some credibility as someone knowledgeable about Tolkien), the Hobbit films thus far have stuck to Tolkien's story a lot more than you and other critics credit, despite the obvious additions and deviations. More so in some ways than the LOTR films (sorry SV).

Oh, I know you should have ignored it. It was a sarcastic throw-away comment and not worthy of response.

I guess that no matter how much these current movies "stick to Toilkien's narrative" on paper, they will never (for me) capture the delightful, lovely little tale that is "The Hobbit." They've been turned into something else entirely. So even when moments from the book are done perfectly (Riddles in the Dark, or the dwarves singing in Bag End) these are overshadowed and enveloped by all the rest of the heavy-handed trappings.

I think what did it for me was the Legolas-killing-orcs scene in Laketown...and I don't even want to get started with the Kili/Tauriel forbidden love-fest.

I am just so....disappointed.

[Smaug's voice]

Oh, I know you should have ignored it. It was a sarcastic throw-away comment and not worthy of response.

I guess that no matter how much these current movies "stick to Toilkien's narrative" on paper, they will never (for me) capture the delightful, lovely little tale that is "The Hobbit." They've been turned into something else entirely. So even when moments from the book are done perfectly (Riddles in the Dark, or the dwarves singing in Bag End) these are overshadowed and enveloped by all the rest of the heavy-handed trappings.

I think what did it for me was the Legolas-killing-orcs scene in Laketown...and I don't even want to get started with the Kili/Tauriel forbidden love-fest.

I am just so....disappointed.

Actually Jewel, I share quite a similar feeling.
The films are for the larger part, not in any way similar to the book's tone.
This is most true for DoS - AUJ had a handful of such moments. The whole first half in fact.
That is to say, I do think DoS is not bereft of Tolkien. I have said this before somewhere, DoS is a good Tolkien-based film and I like it in that way. But as an adaptation of The Hobbit? They are not even trying.

And yes, Legolas killing orc at Laketown is probably the worst scene in any of the 5 films so far. Next comes the healing ...

[Smaug's voice]

With the increasing complications, the bunnysled looks more and more convincing to me.
But then in the end, PJ may certainly look past the time illogicality here, like he did when Rivendell Elves arrived at helms Deep in a day or two.

PtB - I do know about the clip with Gandalf murmuring about a horse. I was asking for the video of Gandalf riding a horse. Though, as Elen says, it could very well be the scene from DoS.

Then there's the published image of Gandalf and Radagast on the Bunny Sled, and a clip in rehearsal of a pacing, bruised Gandalf telling Radagast what he's seen in DG of Sauron's army and the Council must be informed...that again could be from an earlier idea where Gandalf escapes more easily but even that could have been discarded by now.

Alright, I haven't seen any of these things either. Makes me curious.

[Dave_LF]

The problem with that idea is that Gandalf needs to be part of the Dol Guldur battle and apparent defeat of Sauron

Does he? This is an assumption worth digging into.

Gandalf could escape, send word to the White Council, and then head to Erebor. The destruction of Dol Guldur could then happen sans Gandalf. This is certainly not book canon, but we are also certainly not expecting PJ to adhere to book canon anymore.

You could dig into the opposite assumption too: Suppose Gandalf doesn't make it north until the battle is over (or he saves the day by arriving with the cavalry at the last minute, per his idiom). All the pre-battle negotiation etc. he does in the book could fall to Bilbo instead. Bilbo needs to have become the leader by this point in the story, and the stock way of doing that it by removing competing leaders from the set.