The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

[Frelga]

I'll be way more excited for Avengers 2!

I'd be too, but Loki isn't in it.

V, A-VEN-GERS. Boil them, mash them, put them in a fight against world-conquering villains. Even you couldn't say no to that.

[Passdagas the Brown]

As much as Jackson's style annoys me, I'll certainly take BoFA over the dramatically overrated Avengers. Whedon films are fun to watch, but some of the Whedon worship I've witnessed puzzles me...

[Alatar]

Sacrilege!

[Smaug's voice]

As much as Jackson's style annoys me, I'll certainly take BoFA over the dramatically overrated Avengers. Whedon films are fun to watch, but some of the Whedon worship I've witnessed puzzles me...

For once, we agree.
Avengers is a fun popcorn-flick, but by far it is definitely not among the best superhero-flicks ever, as claimed by some. Same goes for all recent Marvel releases. For me, Avengers is the second most hyped film of recent times, after Avatar.

I am looking forward to BOFA very much. Not as an adaptation of The Hobbit, but as a continuation of the Middle-earth hexology of Jackson. After the TH films, it is definitely a story of it's own and easier to separate from the books and enjoy as it is. For me.

[Passdagas the Brown]

SV,

It's nice to agree on occasion, isn't it?

And lo! We agree a second time. I can't describe how much I dislike Avatar, and will forever be puzzled by its enthusiastic reception. James Cameron is my least favorite kind of filmmaker, next to Spielberg.

As for Whedon, I do find some of his films (and TV scripts) to be very amusing. But Avengers is one of his worst offerings, IMO.

[yovargas]

Avengers isn't "a fun popcorn-flick", it's the funnest popcorn-flick! Or pretty darn close to it at least.

[Passdagas the Brown]

It was OK. Sort of funny here and there (eg. The Hulk punching out Thor). Otherwise it was a blur, and I barely remember any of it.

[Smaug's voice]

It was only funny during interactions between Thor/Hulk/Loki. All else fell flat. Iron-Man is irritating.

I don't dislike Avatar. I liked the world-building. I loved the visuals. And it was incredible in 3D. But definitely not worth the hype. Overall it's rather mediocre.

[Passdagas the Brown]

It was only funny during interactions between Thor/Hulk/Loki. All else fell flat. Iron-Man is irritating.

I don't dislike Avatar. I liked the world-building. I loved the visuals. And it was incredible in 3D. But definitely not worth the hype. Overall it's rather mediocre.

Yeah, I shouldn't say I HATE Avatar. It was somewhat enjoyable. But the adulation I can't understand. I also can't stand cartoon depictions of military leaders, and the main "villain" of Avatar is that to the nth degree.

[JewelSong]

"We are the Smurfs...we are the children..."

[Frelga]

Avatar was pretty. It's about the only movie where the visuals made me ignore how silly the story was.

Avengers is a fun popcorn flick, but so was DoS and I expect BOTFA will be, too.

[Passdagas the Brown]

I thought about it some more, and now I'm very worried (I tend to do that a lot). In my mind, there are two problems with this news.

1. Peter Jackson deciding on a completely new cut of the film this late in the game almost guarantees some serious sloppiness. Some of the worst elements of his films seem to have been cobbled together during "pick ups" and "reshoots," and IMO, a lot of the problems with AUJ and DOS stem from the very late-term "three film" decision, and from PJ's tendency to do constant script re-writes during filming. The making of these films is constantly lurching back and forth, and I get the sense that noone, neither the cast nor the crew, has a good sense of what they'll end up like. A tighter ship would have been preferable, IMO.

2. The last time PJ "focused on a battle" was in TTT, and IMO, that was the most dreadfully long and overwrought sequence across all three films. If we have more of that sort of thing for almost the entirety of this next film, I'm afraid I may not even make it through to the end.

However, there's a bright spot. Dwarves. More specifically, Iron Hills dwarves. I've been waiting to see this army on screen for ages. And I have a feeling that Billy Connolly's Dain is going to be fun to watch.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

1) We don't even have any idea how true the report is.

2) There is plenty of time for Jackson to complete a strong cut. The big worry would have been if they had stuck with the original schedule of trying to release the third film in July.

3) The problem with PJ focusing so much on Helm's Deep is that he tried to make a climactic battle out of something that is by definition not a climactic battle. There was an abundance of kewl faux heroism, but precious little pathos or real emotion of any kind. While I expect plenty (e.g. "too much") kewl faux heroism, I hold out hope that this climactic battle can really say something about the horror of war, about real relationships, about greed and power and yes, about death.

4) Wild boars!

[Frelga]

I'd be a lot more excited if they named it The Hobbit: The Battle of the Wild Boars.

I don't see BOTFA as a climactic battle. The only impact really is Thorin's death (Fili and Kili are barely on a reader radar in the book), in keeping with Tolkien's general tendency to "redeem" the fallen characters by killing them off.

[Smaug's voice]

1. Peter Jackson deciding on a completely new cut of the film this late in the game almost guarantees some serious sloppiness. Some of the worst elements of his films seem to have been cobbled together during "pick ups" and "reshoots," and IMO, a lot of the problems with AUJ and DOS stem from the very late-term "three film" decision, and from PJ's tendency to do constant script re-writes during filming. The making of these films is constantly lurching back and forth, and I get the sense that noone, neither the cast nor the crew, has a good sense of what they'll end up like. A tighter ship would have been preferable, IMO.

There's nothing to suggest PJ might be adding stuff. At this point, I think all he's going to change is the focus of the film. Including more scenes of the BOFA and removing others. (hopefully the invented scenario of Tauriel-Kili-Legolas)

2. The last time PJ "focused on a battle" was in TTT, and IMO, that was the most dreadfully long and overwrought sequence across all three films. If we have more of that sort of thing for almost the entirety of this next film, I'm afraid I may not even make it through to the end.

Since this is an open battle than a siege, I think this will be more similar to Pelennor Fields than Helms Deep. while I loved Helms Deep, I loved Pelennor even more. Though the ghosts and Legolas did ruin it.
As long as Legolas/Tauriel do not have a major role in this and Smaug is well dead, BOFA is safe.

ETA: A prediction: Gandalf is going to call The Moth again.

[Passdagas the Brown]

As long as Legolas/Tauriel do not have a major role

You really think that's possible? Legolas and Tauriel are very likely to have significant roles during BoFA. That's almost guaranteed.

And yes, the Moth is likely to be back!

[Elentári]

As long as Legolas/Tauriel do not have a major role

You really think that's possible? Legolas and Tauriel are very likely to have significant roles during BoFA. That's almost guaranteed.

More's the pity...

Passdagas the Brown wrote:

1. Peter Jackson deciding on a completely new cut of the film this late in the game almost guarantees some serious sloppiness. Some of the worst elements of his films seem to have been cobbled together during "pick ups" and "reshoots," and IMO, a lot of the problems with AUJ and DOS stem from the very late-term "three film" decision, and from PJ's tendency to do constant script re-writes during filming. The making of these films is constantly lurching back and forth, and I get the sense that noone, neither the cast nor the crew, has a good sense of what they'll end up like. A tighter ship would have been preferable, IMO.

I'm afraid I have to agree with this. Last minute re-writes may have worked for LotR, particularly when, as they have admitted, they kept coming back to the book...but I do think all the whole TH has been the worse for all the chopping and changing/expanding since Principal photography.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

As long as Legolas/Tauriel do not have a major role

You really think that's possible? Legolas and Tauriel are very likely to have significant roles during BoFA. That's almost guaranteed.

I think he meant (or at least I took it mean) Legolas/Tauriel, as opposed Legolas, and Tauriel. Certainly the two of them will play prominent roles and both will surely add to the inevitable faux heroic nonsense, but I have some hope that Tauriel at least will continue to contribute to the emotional resonance. What I interpreted SV to mean (and I'm sure he will correct me if wrong), is to hope that there will less focus on any potential romantic relationship between Legolas and Tauriel. Since I don't think there ever was going to be such focus, I am not too concerned about that point.

And yes, the Moth is likely to be back!

That's more of an observation than a prediction.

Last minute re-writes may have worked for LotR, particularly when, as they have admitted, they kept coming back to the book...but I do think all the whole TH has been the worse for all the chopping and changing/expanding since Principal photography.

Whereas I think that last minute rewrites were a much bigger problem with LOTR, particularly TTT and most of all ROTK, which largely was a mess a result. Both TH films so far are a model of film making consistency in comparison.

[Elentári]

Last minute re-writes may have worked for LotR, particularly when, as they have admitted, they kept coming back to the book...but I do think all the whole TH has been the worse for all the chopping and changing/expanding since Principal photography.

Whereas I think that last minute rewrites were a much bigger problem with LOTR, particularly TTT and most of all ROTK, which largely was a mess a result. Both TH films so far are a model of film making consistency in comparison.

Consistency?

RotK was cearly mess in terms of amount of story left to cram into the final instalment. It should have been split into two, really. I wasn't following the production news at the time, but I don't think LotR suffered from throwing out virtually everything from 2 year's worth of pre-production and starting again from scratch less than a year before filming began. Then completely re-thinking the story they wanted to tell after Principle photography has finished, turning it into a trilogy 6 months before the first film was due. Since then the movie story has continued to expand and become more and more complicated and confusing...2 movies in and there are still minor plotlines that haven't had pay-offs, and scenes that make no sense or don't feel thought out properly. Stuff left to the EE that would have greatly enhanced the TE for the sake of a couple of minutes,, such as Bilbo in Rivendell...

Which reminds me, I was watching the AUJ EE a couple of days ago and the scene at Rivendell where Bilbo overhears Gandalf and Elrond discussing Thorin's family history of mental illness as Thorin comes up behind him. It must have been clearly audible to him as well...even the first time I saw this scene I expected Thorin to be angry and embarrassed that Bilbo had heard such private information yet Thorin starts talking to Bilbo as if nothing has happened. It could have worked so much better for Thorin to have come up behind Bilbo after Gandalf and Elrond had finished their talk and turned away.

[Smaug's voice]

I think he meant (or at least I took it mean) Legolas/Tauriel, as opposed Legolas, and Tauriel. Certainly the two of them will play prominent roles and both will surely add to the inevitable faux heroic nonsense, but I have some hope that Tauriel at least will continue to contribute to the emotional resonance. What I interpreted SV to mean (and I'm sure he will correct me if wrong), is to hope that there will less focus on any potential romantic relationship between Legolas and Tauriel. Since I don't think there ever was going to be such focus, I am not too concerned about that point.

I meant both of the those.
Of course there will be ridiculous heroics by Legolas and Tauriel, but hopefully not enough to ruin the battle. Legolas' surfing a board and an Oliphaunt didn't ruin those battles for me because they were over in a matter of seconds.
And of course, there must not be romance in any shape or form on the field. I know it's impossible to wish for that, but that's just my ideal representation of how BOFA should be edited.

Last minute re-writes may have worked for LotR, particularly when, as they have admitted, they kept coming back to the book...but I do think all the whole TH has been the worse for all the chopping and changing/expanding since Principal photography.


Whereas I think that last minute rewrites were a much bigger problem with LOTR, particularly TTT and most of all ROTK, which largely was a mess a result. Both TH films so far are a model of film making consistency in comparison.

I do not know this. What were the last minute changes in LotR?
Whatever the case, none of the changes - except for the brilliantly shot Osgilliath section - detracted from the central story and theme of LotR.
I agree RotK was a mess in terms of too much in too little time, but that doesn't stop it from being a deeply emotional film. (I know you find most of that melodramatic since DOS, but before DOS came I have seen some of your posts praising the emotional-depth of LotR. )

Ironically, every major change is a hindrance to the plot in case of TH. Whether it be Azog or Tauriel/Kili.

Also, there are far less logical fallacies in LotR. Only two films in TH and they are full of it. Why does Azog hate Thorin? Why does Thorin think Azog is dead? How do Balin and Gandalf know he isn't? Why did Thorin surrender arms to die along with Bilbo? The Rock-giants? Why does Bilbo falls for thousands of feet and yet doesn't get a single scratch? Tauriel fascinated by unbearded dwarf only? Tauriel and Legolas coming out of nowhere in Laketown? Laketowners refusing to aid the King's nephew? Laketowners don't hear a thing when orcs attack? Golden dwarf bursting out?

There are quite a few logical fallacies in LotR of course. But they are outnumbered by TH.

Also, the last hour of AUJ is a complete mess in every way except for acting, cinematography and VFX. (and the Riddles of course)

These all indicate to me, that the writing in these TH films are less thought out than in LotR. Which could be true of course, as in LotR the writers had time. In this case, they had to re-do everything after GdT left.