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 Post subject: Forcing Sauron's Hand
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:09 am 
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On various sites, a number of people have complained that Gandalf goes overboard in trying to prove that Sauron is in Dol Guldur, given how obvious it is that it's him.

Yet this seems to miss Gandalf's statement to Radagast about "forcing Sauron's hand."

As I understood it, Gandalf was trying to accomplish a few things:

1. Expose Sauron, and prove it was him beyond a reasonable doubt
2. Force Sauron to act first, and thus give the White Council a casus belli
3. In so doing, force Saruman's hand, who is the leader and main skeptic in the White Council
4. Force Sauron to act before he had gathered his full strength

Is this clear to anyone else, or is it just me?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:11 am 
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I thought it was.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:13 am 
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I was thoroughly confused by this whole story line and didn't at all understand what or why Gandalf was doing.

But it looked really cool. 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:13 am 
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Absolutely. "It is undoubtedly a trap." And telling Radagast not to follow him under any circumstances. He was essentially knowingly sacrificing himself in order to get the White Council to act. He knew that he was no match for Sauron (though he did put up an admirable fight).

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:29 am 
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Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Absolutely. "It is undoubtedly a trap." And telling Radagast not to follow him under any circumstances. He was essentially knowingly sacrificing himself in order to get the White Council to act. He knew that he was no match for Sauron (though he did put up an admirable fight).


Doesn't Gandalf also say to Radagast "I need you to take a message to Lady Galadriel. Tell her, we must force his hand."

To which Radagast replies: "What do you mean?"

Followed by Gandalf's: "I'm going in alone."

Clearly, Gandalf was implying that they needed to "force Saruman's hand." And by exposing Sauron through lifting the spell of concealment, he leaves Saruman no choice.

Was this just presented in a confusing way? I'm having trouble understanding why so many fans had no idea what Gandalf was doing...


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:32 am 
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Well, there is so much going on in the film, I could see how people would get a little lost.

But it was pretty clear to me.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:41 am 
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My biggest confusion is what that weird place where Gandalf climbs those mountain steps, what that place was and why he went there and what he apparently found and why whatever he found made him go to Dol Guldur. I didn't follow any of that

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:56 am 
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That was the tomb of the WitchKing that they discussed in the White Council scene, where the Morgul blade was buried with him.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:02 am 
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So the Morgul blade that Radagast found in Dol Goldor in AUJ was known to have originated in that tomb? Did they say how they knew that or is it assumed that the blade is this is just a generally known artifact by the Council? And I still don't get why he decided to go to the tomb? Or what he found there?

I iz confused. :blackeye:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:11 am 
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Yes, they talked about it at length during the White Council scene in the first film. Of course, if one hadn't seen that film (or didn't like and thus didn't pay attention :P), one would be confused.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:18 am 
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That scene was cut from the fan edit. :P

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:45 am 
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There were nine tombs in the High Fells, and they were empty... So yeah, the nine had escaped...

Which led Gandalf to believe that Sauron had called them...

It's a little hazy, but oddly, I like that about it. Mysterious.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:56 am 
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It all seemed clear to me, but I had already heard that Gandalf was going to the tombs where the Nine should be. So I'm didn't see it with the purity of unspoiled vision.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:27 am 
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So where did the Orc get a morgul arrow to shoot Killi with?

Edited to unedited an autocorrect.

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Last edited by narya on Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:21 am 
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Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Yes, they talked about it at length during the White Council scene in the first film. Of course, if one hadn't seen that film (or didn't like and thus didn't pay attention :P), one would be confused.


And of course, it was meant to occur in AUJ , somewhere between the Dwarves leaving Rivendell and Gandalf arriving in Goblin Town to rescue them.

No wonder if some in the audience forgot all that by the time they viewed DoS...

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:37 pm 
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narya wrote:
So where did the Orc get a morgue arrow to shoot Killi with?

Isn't it just regular poison?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:51 pm 
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No, I heard them say "morgul" and was baffled.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:55 pm 
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Yes, the Orc said Morgul, but since they came from Dol Guldur, it seemed to make sense to me.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:00 pm 
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Yeah, that didn't make a lot of sense since the description of the effects was just that of an ordinary poison arrow. It must be a Morgul arrow in a different sense of the word than what's implied by Morgul blade.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:15 pm 
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I took it to be similar to the arrow that wounded Faramir.

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