Thranduil killing the prisoner

[kzer_za]

Am I the only one who was really bothered by this? I never watched the early-released interrogation clip, so maybe others here knew about it already (was the decapitation there?). But I do think it damages Thranduil's character. At first I liked the idea of Thranduil holding the impetuous young Tauriel in check, and then they throw that out by having him do the same thing she wanted to.

Though as awful as the "I released his head from his shoulders" line was, Pace kind of sells it.

[Dave_LF]

You could argue that he technically broke his word, but it's not as though the orc was being cooperative (technically he was only commanded to "talk", but I think cooperation was implied. It's hard to argue that you're holding up your end of the deal when you're threatening your captor and his entire kingdom with destruction). And this isn't Faramir we're talking about, it's a wood-elf. I don't know.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

As I said in the other thread, my standard for Pace's Thranduil is "could I picture Thingol doing this." And I could. Thranduil is being portrayed as being almost exclusively concerned about protecting his realm - just as Thingol was. This is no Faramir "I would not snare even an orc with a falsehood" character. He is much more jaded than that.

[Teremia]

I didn't like it.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I wouldn't say that I "liked it"; obviously it was a nasty thing to do. But I don't think that it was "incorrect" as in "Thranduil would never do that". After all, even in the book, this is the king who threw the dwarves into prison and was willing to let them rot there indefinitely, simply for starving in his forest. When you add in the history and deep hatred for the orcs that he and his people had, I could see him doing that. You don't even have to look beyond the pages of the book to see how deep that hatred is:

The elves were the first to charge. Their hatred for the goblins is cold and bitter.

[yovargas]

Even amongst a movie that was disposing of orcs left and right as casually as tissue paper this one felt...distasteful.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I don't disagree with that. But I think I ties into the question that Ax asked in the thread that he started.

[axordil]

Yeah, it does. And on a practical level...you can't let an orc go, not unless you're following him back to his pals to get them too. Because they will assume that's what's going on and kill him anyway.

Given the purported heritage of orcs, I wonder if most elves feel about them as humans in movies do about zombies: you don't debate, you exterminate.

It's notable Leoglas' objection was to his father's timing, not his action.

[yovargas]

It wasn't the act so much as the way the act was portrayed. In the rest of the movie the violence is "anvil falls on your head" cartoony which makes the violence feel inconsequential. This one had a brutal, almost sadistic vibe to it which I was somewhat uncomfortable with.

[axordil]

Nah, sadistic would take longer. Brutal, yes. It was by far the most violent act of the film, in my view, and the one I felt the most guilty about exposing my son to.

But it was also absolutely in character for an Elf Lord who lived in Beleriand in the First Age.

[Passdagas the Brown]

It wasn't the act so much as the way the act was portrayed. In the rest of the movie the violence is "anvil falls on your head" cartoony which makes the violence feel inconsequential. This one had a brutal, almost sadistic vibe to it which I was somewhat uncomfortable with.

IMO, inconsequential violence is worse.

[yovargas]

Sadistic from PJ's POV, not Thar's.



*x-post with ptb*

IMO, inconsequential violence is worse.

People pretty well understand not to let anvil falls on your head.

[axordil]

It wasn't the act so much as the way the act was portrayed. In the rest of the movie the violence is "anvil falls on your head" cartoony which makes the violence feel inconsequential. This one had a brutal, almost sadistic vibe to it which I was somewhat uncomfortable with.

IMO, inconsequential violence is worse.

Yes. And no. It's a hard knot for me to unravel as a father. With orcs who are clearly going to kill you if you don't kill them first, it's less troubling, perhaps (until you dig into the same issues that ultimately stymied JRRT himself on their nature)...though pushing into the realm of the cartoonish is its own problem. I am troubled when I find myself laughing when Lego nails two orcs with one arrow...and not so troubled when I find myself laughing at Pinball Bombur hacking through orcs in the barrel. And the difference in trouble levels troubles me too.

[N.E. Brigand]

It contradicts what Tolkien said would happen if elves captured an orc--but he wrote in the same place that orcs always fought to the death (so that the matter was never put to a test).

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That's not quite correct, unless you are referring to something different than what I am thinking of. In the essay on Orcs in the Myths Transformed section of Morgoth's Ring, he wrote:

Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defense of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost.* This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded.

[Footnote to the text]*Few Orcs ever did so in the Elder Days, and at no time would any Orc treat with any Elf. For one thing Morgoth had achieved was to convince the Orcs beyond refutation that the Elves were crueler than themselves, taking captives only for 'amusement', or to eat them (as the Orcs would do at need).

So while they are supposed to grant mercy to an Orc, they did not always did so. Was Thranduil one of the Wise? Is actions do not suggest that he was.

[yovargas]

Do you have, like, all of Tolkien's writings memorized and available in a copy 'n paste format?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Basically, yes.

[yovargas]

[Voronwë the Faithful]

[Smaug's voice]

Very very impressive, V.

Of the scene. I thought it was okay. The dialogue, as I said after seeing the released clip was not much good.
I liked Thranduil killing the orc. But not the way he does.
The way he decapitates the orc ... that just screams out of the screen "hey look, Thranduil is so cool!" which is basically my only problem with Legolas. I hope PJ and co don't make T into another style-statement.