Thranduil killing the prisoner

[yovargas]

Oh lord, I entirely forgot about that. Yeesh. Maybe it's been too long.
(For what it's worth......I recall finding Tolkien's version pretty unsatisfying as well.)

[Passdagas the Brown]

It wasn't unsatisfying, IMO, because Aragorn didn't show up and just sweep away Sauron's armies with invincible ghosts. He had a decent human army with him, but there was still some substantial fighting (and dying) that happened after Aragorn's arrival in the book, and the wonderful moment of Aragorn meeting Éomer on the field.

It was at least 2000x more satisfying than PJ's hack job, IMO.

[yovargas]

It's unsatisfying to me simply because the idea of the undead army is just dumb to begin with, IMO, regardless of how he ultimately uses it. I just never liked the whole POTD side story.

[Passdagas the Brown]

It's unsatisfying to me simply because the idea of the undead army is just dumb to begin with, IMO, regardless of how he ultimately uses it. I just never liked the whole POTD side story.

Ah, I see. Though the ghost army helping to scare off the Corsairs, and free the Gondorian slaves, was "off-screen," so to speak, in the book. Anyway, understood.

It's funny, because in the book I find it to be one of the most evocative passages of ROTK, while it's definitely the worst moment of that film. IMO.

[Galin]

After all, even in the book, this is the king who threw the dwarves into prison and was willing to let them rot there indefinitely, simply for starving in his forest.

Now now, Thranduil thought these Dwarves had attacked his people, and the Dwarves, although denying that much, refused to talk [and further anger the King with that remark about the spiders].

The reader knows what the Dwarves did and why, but Thranduil doesn't, and he isn't given much reason to believe the little the Dwarves are willing to say...

... one of them just needs to tell the Elven-king what they are really doing in his forest [besides the obvious 'starving' of course], for their own release.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

It always fascinates me how differently people interpret stories. I never thought that the Elvenking honestly thought that the Dwarves were attacking his people, or at least that they represented any kind of a real threat. If the Elves really felt threatened by the Dwarves, why would they repeatedly (and seemingly maliciously) continue feasting, and singing and laughing in different places while the Dwarves miserably try to find them? Surely they don't sound at all like they feel like they are under the threat of attack?

[Galin]

Hmm, but then Thranduil, king of the Good People, is essentially lying [not being honest anyway] rather than reacting honestly if [even overly] warily, from a given perspective.

My take is that the Elves could rather easily elude the Dwarves by magic [whether or not this fits in well with the greater mythology being beside the point for now]. And I note Tolkien has the first encounter look kind of like an 'attack' as the Dwarves 'scrambled forward' without waiting to consult one another or hail the Elves. Later Thorin even says 'No rushing forward this time.'

But then they make the mistake of pushing Bilbo 'suddenly' from behind, and poof, defense mode activated again. To my mind the Elves have no idea that the Dwarves are hungry much less starving, as their defense is to 'vanish' so quickly that all they see is a persistent violation of their 'fairy ring', meaning I don't see their continuing to feast as mocking the hunger of the Dwarves, for example.


Before Thranduil speaks to Thorin the texts notes that the Elves do not love Dwarves, and Thorin was thought an enemy [narration]. Then we hear of the ancient wars, plural, with some Dwarves, again keeping in mind that a number of Dwarves rushed forward 'at the Elves' with no word of warnning...

... a mistake yes, but still.

So Thranduil uses attack, and although Thorin denies this he won't really say what he is doing in the forest, which I think arguably puts the denial itself at least a bit in question from the Elven perspective, although the King will change the word attack to pursue a bit later. Plus the Spiders were roused. And yes the Elves had a special hate for goblins, nevertheless it's noted...

'The giant spiders were the only living things that they had no mercy upon.'

So with Thorin not speaking [suspicious in itself I think], yes he is locked up until he will truly answer. Not simply for starving of course, and there he is given 'plenty' of food and drink, if not the best.

Next the King questions the other Dwarves but gets little more from them, and Balin adds the 'question' about the spiders being the pets of Thranduil. Here Thranduil changes from attack to pursue and trouble:

'Did you not three times pursue and trouble my people in the forest and rouse the spiders with your clamour?'

But apparently the Dwarves still will not truly explain what they are doing. Again, in my opinion that only serves to cast doubt on what they have said.

Now none of this makes Thranduil 'correct' of course, but I think his reaction is not only honest from his perspective, and plausible, but needed for the tale actually. Tolkien has already told the reader that the Wood Elves are not wicked if distrustful of strangers and wary, and that they had strong magic; and he ends the description again with the fact that these are Elves and thus Good People...

... so to my mind, the King of such people acts accordingly wary when it comes to Dwarves. Tolkien makes the Elven magic almost too strong here [perhaps based on Primary World tales], in the sense that their vanishing seems an almost instant reaction to peril: break the ring -- and the defense mode springs into action.

Thus no time for either folk to understand the other.

Granted one could wonder, if the Elves truly felt in peril, why go back to feasting two more times. Well, the art of tale telling aside, internally I suppose that they knew they could escape as readily as the first time...

... but in any case I think Tolkien purposely crafts these scenes so that the wary Thranduil can honestly believe what he says, even if the reader already knows better.

Just my two or three cents anyway

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I think the Elvenking was being more honest when he said "pursue and trouble" and "clamour" than when he said "attack".

Hmm, but then Thranduil, king of the Good People, is essentially lying [not being honest anyway] rather than reacting honestly if [even overly] warily, from a given perspective.

Was Thingol (upon whom the Elvenking was clearly based) honestly setting Beren to a task that he thought he could accomplish, or attempting to send him to his death? While it is true that the narrator makes a point of calling the Elves "good people" I have always felt that the truth about them, and particularly their king, was more complicated than that.

[N.E. Brigand]

The book also gives the Wood-elves a specific historical reason for distrusting the Dwarves that does not appear in the film (so far, anyway).

[Galin]

While it is true that the narrator makes a point of calling the Elves "good people" I have always felt that the truth about them, and particularly their king, was more complicated than that.

Well I agree with that in general, but whatever is true or not about Thingol and Beren doesn't necessarily illustrate that Thranduil didn't rule out an attack as an 'honest' reaction, from his perspective -- these were stated past enemies [generally of course, being Dwarves] ...

... rushing at his folk in the night with no word of warning after all.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The book also gives the Wood-elves a specific historical reason for distrusting the Dwarves that does not appear in the film (so far, anyway).

Actually it does based on the AUJ EE.

[N.E. Brigand]

Ah, I haven't even seen the Lord of the Rings extended editions yet, much less those for the new films. Thanks for the heads-up.