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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:46 pm 
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Since V is being a tad premature with his TABA thread, I thought perhaps we could also do with a DoS EE anticipation thread, considering we know something already of what has been cut for the TE that will likely be reinserted into the EE - namely Gandalf obtaining the map and key from Thrain. Will we get any more of the Thrain backstory, or, as seems more likely, will it be held over to TABA?

We also know (from Quickbeam''s review on TORn) that the Bombur in the Enchanted River sequence was filmed, and may well appear in the extended version.

Anything else you think might make it back in - or that you think might be expanded on from the TE?

I'd certainly like to see more of Beorn and Thranduil as reports are indicating they are somewhat short-changed in the TE...

Might there be more from the Master/Alfrid double act?

Could they possibly stretch out the Tauriel-Kili affair any more?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:50 pm 
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To be clear, nobody could class Tauriel-Kili as an affair. In the slightest. I don't expect there to be much more of that. I expect a bit more Beorn, but honestly I didn't think he was short changed. If anything he had extra exposition missing from the book. I expect Mirkwood to be fairly extended as that was very compressed.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:54 pm 
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I used the word "affair" even though I meant it to be read in the sense of "business", because of the double entendre! ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:52 pm 
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Nice wordplay! And yes, I think it is worth starting this thread. Probably should repost here the interview in which PB talks about Thrain being in the EE.

In an interview with Vulture, PB says this:

Quote:
When we last spoke at the premiere of the first Hobbit movie, I asked you about something that you said would be in the second movie, and then it wasn't. So I have to ask: Why we didn't see Thráin, Thorin Oakenshield's father, give Gandalf the map and key?
Ah, yes. That's going to be in the extended cut of the second film. In the end, it became about length and time and pace, and yeah, it's a very important part of the storytelling, but really, that's part of the brutality of filmmaking. As much as it informs Thorin's story, you're bringing in yet another character that you have to explain. We did actually shoot it. But Peter made the decision that this stuff is going to work best in the extended cut. If you're a Tolkien fan, you're going to want to see how this plays out


http://www.vulture.com/2013/12/hobbit-s ... l?mid=imdb

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:55 pm 
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Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Nice wordplay! And yes, I think it is worth starting this thread. Probably should repost here the interview in which PB talks about Thrain being in the EE.

In an interview with Vulture, PB says this:

Quote:
When we last spoke at the premiere of the first Hobbit movie, I asked you about something that you said would be in the second movie, and then it wasn't. So I have to ask: Why we didn't see Thráin, Thorin Oakenshield's father, give Gandalf the map and key?
Ah, yes. That's going to be in the extended cut of the second film. In the end, it became about length and time and pace, and yeah, it's a very important part of the storytelling, but really, that's part of the brutality of filmmaking. As much as it informs Thorin's story, you're bringing in yet another character that you have to explain. We did actually shoot it. But Peter made the decision that this stuff is going to work best in the extended cut. If you're a Tolkien fan, you're going to want to see how this plays out


http://www.vulture.com/2013/12/hobbit-s ... l?mid=imdb


Yes, "part of the brutality of storytelling" involves the need to include a 20-minute sequence of dwarves attacking Smaug with dwarf grenades, hopping on his snout, dangling from chains, and pouring molten gold all over him? What happened to the Appendices being the primary driver of the three-film decision?

Please. PJ's justifications for a lack of depth in his films get more and more absurd.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:02 pm 
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Actually, the movies does need a climax once Smaugs death is out. Its a case of living with your own decisions. Honestly, I'm not apologising for PJ here but I understand his dilemma. The Hobbit, with White council storyline would not have fit two movies. By moving to 3, he had to create climaxes where there were none. I personally didn't like this one. Others loved it.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:13 pm 
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Understood. I mostly dislike PJ for the execution of his film structures, not the structures themselves.

Out of curiosity, who in the cinema seemed to love the climax?

And generally, was it more OTT than either Goblintown or Out of the Frying Pan?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:31 pm 
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I have gone back and forth so much about having Smaug die in the second or third film. While my tentative opinion is that it will hurt the second film not to have it (but I reserve the right to love the OTT battle with the dwarves, as I did Goblintown, but not so much Out of the Frying Pan, other than the eagles), but my tentative thought is that it will enhance the third film to have it there, and make that film a much more integrated whole.

My question (which really should go in the new TaBA thread, not here), is will he make Smaug's death the slambang opener of the film?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:12 pm 
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Why I was always in for Smaug dying in the third film:

-I had no idea that Mirkwood would be shortened so much So I actually had thought we'll get erebor only for around 30-45 mins. In no way enough to stage the confrontation, Bilbo's thieving, Smaug's rage and destruction and his death.
-For the audience yet alien to Tolkien, they would see no reason to come back for the third. "They set out to free their home from the dragon and the dragon died. What more can be left?"
-Admittedly, I was also a bit biased since I was looking forward to Cumberbatch's Smaug since the filming of AUJ! So I wanted more of Smaug. :P
- Lastly, but most importantly. In allowing Smaug to die in the same film as BoFA takes place, it makes for a perfect transition between the two villains of the story. The supposed antagonist Smaug, and the true evil, greed. Most of the audience now understands that Smaug was never the main antagonist, but greed and lust were. The transition is complete visually, thematically and cinematicaly. If Smaug had died in DOS, it would have been a break-point in the series making everything feel more episodic. There would have been no real connection between the two evils. It will be just be "this happened and then that happened".

So I kinda understand their need to come up with the DOS-climax though I reserve my view on how I will like it.

But, as far as I can see, the root problem of everything that is going wrong with the franchise is the decision to split in three.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:39 pm 
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Smaug's voice wrote:
Why I was always in for Smaug dying in the third film:

-I had no idea that Mirkwood would be shortened so much So I actually had thought we'll get erebor only for around 30-45 mins. In no way enough to stage the confrontation, Bilbo's thieving, Smaug's rage and destruction and his death.
-For the audience yet alien to Tolkien, they would see no reason to come back for the third. "They set out to free their home from the dragon and the dragon died. What more can be left?"
-Admittedly, I was also a bit biased since I was looking forward to Cumberbatch's Smaug since the filming of AUJ! So I wanted more of Smaug. :P
- Lastly, but most importantly. In allowing Smaug to die in the same film as BoFA takes place, it makes for a perfect transition between the two villains of the story. The supposed antagonist Smaug, and the true evil, greed. Most of the audience now understands that Smaug was never the main antagonist, but greed and lust were. The transition is complete visually, thematically and cinematicaly. If Smaug had died in DOS, it would have been a break-point in the series making everything feel more episodic. There would have been no real connection between the two evils. It will be just be "this happened and then that happened".

So I kinda understand their need to come up with the DOS-climax though I reserve my view on how I will like it.

But, as far as I can see, the root problem of everything that is going wrong with the franchise is the decision to split in three.


Good points. I expect this represents a large part of their thinking.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:50 pm 
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Particularly:

Smaug's voice wrote:
In allowing Smaug to die in the same film as BoFA takes place, it makes for a perfect transition between the two villains of the story. The supposed antagonist Smaug, and the true evil, greed. Most of the audience now understands that Smaug was never the main antagonist, but greed and lust were. The transition is complete visually, thematically and cinematicaly. If Smaug had died in DOS, it would have been a break-point in the series making everything feel more episodic. There would have been no real connection between the two evils. It will be just be "this happened and then that happened".


Although I worry about how much they will allow the true evil, greed do the be main antagonist, or how much they will force it to become Sauron.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:59 pm 
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And hopefully they won't forget pride! It's you and PtB I believe who drew my attention to this once upon and I don't want to steal your credit, but Thorin's failing really has (is supposed to have!) much more to do with pride than greed.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:06 pm 
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I would be able to comment more in about 25 hours, but I do think that the filmmakers should be able to do a good job of that with their version of Thorin.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:13 pm 
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Dave_LF wrote:
And hopefully they won't forget pride! It's you and PtB I believe who drew my attention to this once upon and I don't want to steal your credit, but Thorin's failing really has (is supposed to have!) much more to do with pride than greed.


Yes, I have often harped on the fact that pride vs. humility is one of the core themes of the Hobbit (which is played out primarily as Thorin vs. Bilbo). Greed is, in the context of the story, an element of Thorin's pride. He doesn't want gold so he can spend it on fancy cars, he wants gold because that wealth enhances his standing in the dwarven consciousness (including his historical legacy). It's part of PJ's pre-Christian characterization of the denizens of Middle Earth, and a generally accepted notion in sociological circles as well!

But I don't believe PB and J will drop the ball on this. Armitage's Thorin has been portrayed as full of pride - even moreso in the books. He refuses to seek council with the elves out of pride (beneath his dignity to treat with enemies and traitors), and he says to Balin in Bag End that as the heir to the throne under the Mountain, he really has no choice but to pursue this quest. Of course he DOES have a choice, but his pride and honor are at stake. And he is so prideful, that he actually relinquishes even the idea that he has a choice in the matter. Duty calls, and he would lose his dignity if he did not answer.

PB and J already have this covered in AUJ, so I don't imagine they'll mess it up in DOS and TABA.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:07 am 
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I'm ready to go. Rather than watching some LOTR, I decided to watch me some Jackie Chan. Bring it on!

In all seriousness, I hope I like it. And if there are any east coasters out there going to the midnight showing, enjoy!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:39 am 
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Looking forward to your review V-man! I hope you give us at least a one liner before bed!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:11 am 
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I'm sure you will enjoy it, V - another 36 hours for me to wait!

Back to the real purpose of this thread, though, and more suggestions of moments we had heard about previously that apparently didn't make it into the TE - hopefully they will be reinstated in the EE:

-"And that's why the eagles will take you no further..." scene
- Bilbo's "never venture east!" scene that we saw in the Sneak Peek:

Quote:
Bilbo: “I should’ve never left Bag End. That was my first mistake. We have a little saying in the Shire, we learn it from birth: Never venture east.”

Bard the Bowman: “So tell me Master Hobbit, why did you venture east?”

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:43 pm 
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Elentári wrote:
I'm sure you will enjoy it, V - another 36 hours for me to wait!

Back to the real purpose of this thread, though, and more suggestions of moments we had heard about previously that apparently didn't make it into the TE - hopefully they will be reinstated in the EE:

-"And that's why the eagles will take you no further..." scene
- Bilbo's "never venture east!" scene that we saw in the Sneak Peek:

Quote:
Bilbo: “I should’ve never left Bag End. That was my first mistake. We have a little saying in the Shire, we learn it from birth: Never venture east.”

Bard the Bowman: “So tell me Master Hobbit, why did you venture east?”


Out of curiosity, who confirmed that the "never venture East!" scene didn't make the cut?

Would be a shame, as it sounds like Bilbo character scenes like that are just what this film needs.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:37 pm 
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I will be seeing a matinee tomorrow - hope I enjoy it! I am a little more optimistic than I was a month or two ago, but still nervous.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:47 pm 
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Alatar wrote:
Looking forward to your review V-man! I hope you give us at least a one liner before bed!


Since I am seeing an 11:00 a.m. matinee (in four hours and fifteen minutes), I should be able to manage that. ;) (unless you mean before you go to bed, in which case I am less sure)

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