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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:35 pm 
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If the Master was secretly convinced (as he is in the book IIRC) the dwarves are going off to their doom, the conversation would make a bit more sense...after a big public sendoff the atmosphere gets a little chilly and people hunker down again.

But we don't get a scene suggesting the Master's duplicity toward the dwarves in particular.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:15 pm 
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In the movie, the Master's main motivation for supporting the dwarves seems to be that it's politically expedient, especially since it gives him an opportunity to publicly one-up Bard.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:34 pm 
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Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Did someone say something? :scratch:


Yes. Yovargas, Elentári, anthriel, axordil, kzer, Smaug's voice and I did.

Noone else, as far as I can tell.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:03 pm 
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Alatar wrote:
At the risk of reading too much into it, I think its clear that the Laketown people are poor and more or less oppressed. With a fickle Mayor and a corrupt militia, I can see why anyone would be slow to stick their neck out in case the wind changed.


I agree with this, and I think it is pretty well implied by the film. I don't need every wrinkle of a cat's rear end described to me to know what it is. ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:47 pm 
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This is all very well, but any Laketown person close enough to hear what Thorin said to Kili would have also heard him tell him to get himself healed, regain his strength and join the rest of them up the mountain later. Thorin hardly cast him away by the scruff of the neck.

Still, perhaps if we'd actually been shown a clip of the Master or Alfrid turning the four away first, before they turned up at Bard's door, it would have been a bit easier to swallow.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:23 am 
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I doubt they would have heard what he said at all. They would have just seen him prevent Kili from joining them.

There are plenty of things in the film that don't make sense to me, but that is certainly not one of them.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:28 am 
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Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Alatar wrote:
At the risk of reading too much into it, I think its clear that the Laketown people are poor and more or less oppressed. With a fickle Mayor and a corrupt militia, I can see why anyone would be slow to stick their neck out in case the wind changed.


I agree with this, and I think it is pretty well implied by the film. I don't need every wrinkle of a cat's rear end described to me to know what it is. ;)


It's not that it needs explaining. It's that it's a poorly-conceived plot point to get the dwarves into Bard's home so that the orcs can endanger Bard's children. It borders on nonsense that the dwarves sought help for a dying member of a royal household, and got no help from anyone! I mean, if the Master is indeed interested in Thorin's wealth, why wouldn't he at least want to gain his favor by finding a healer for his nephew? And if the townspeople are poor, wouldn't the promise of a reward be a powerful motivator? As I said earlier:

Quote:
Given how enthusiastically the Laketowners received the dwarves, all Fili had to say to them (or the master) is something like "we are the heirs to the throne. If you help us, there will be rich reward."

And if they still refused, out of a vague notion that they were dispensable, Fili could have said: "If Thorin's heir dies, he will be wroth."


Care to respond to this specifically? :)

I mean, I like this film a lot. But PJ and company play very fast and loose with their script. This likely has a lot to do with the ever-changing nature of the script than anything else. Contradictions and inanities are sure to arise, as a result.

Does it bother me much? Not really. But I won't say that there's good logic in it.

ETA:

Quote:
I doubt they would have heard what he said at all. They would have just seen him prevent Kili from joining them.


What Thorin said to them is irrelevant. All Fili had to do was explain the situation, promise a reward, and help would likely have come in spades. After all, these people accepted Thorin's word in the span of a minute! Why wouldn't they listen to Fili? And if they are all too dumb to understand the possible benefits of helping him, surely the Master would understand and at least hedge his bets by helping them? The mental gymnastics needed to justify this are too intricate, IMO. PJ wanted the dwarves in Bard's house, and he came up with an expedient, though rather silly, solution.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:57 am 
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Passdagas the Brown wrote:
One thing that really bugged me ... was Bofur's line when he goes back to Bard's house for help with Kili. He says, as a rationale for seeking Bard out: "No one will help us." If I am not mistaken, in the scene immediately prior, the dwarves were feted as heroes, and had been warmly embraced by the people of Lake-town based on a promise of shared wealth and fulfilled prophecies. Why in the world would they have been shunned, in this context? Would it not be in everyone's interest to help save the life of a dwarf, and perhaps incur a handsome reward?

I similarly was quite puzzled by this line.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:56 am 
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Passdagas the Brown wrote:
As I said earlier:

Quote:
Given how enthusiastically the Laketowners received the dwarves, all Fili had to say to them (or the master) is something like "we are the heirs to the throne. If you help us, there will be rich reward."

And if they still refused, out of a vague notion that they were dispensable, Fili could have said: "If Thorin's heir dies, he will be wroth."


Care to respond to this specifically? :)


The same thing I have been saying all along. The Master, the townspeople, they all saw Thorin leave these dwarves behind. Why would they even believe that Thorin would be "wroth" if he dies?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:31 am 
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All Fili would have to say is: "We are heirs to the throne of the Lonely Mountain. We have stayed behind because the youngest of us is wounded and sick. Help us, and you will have rich reward."

Based on how the film plays out, must we simply assume that Fili wasn't intelligent enough to explain their plight, and/ or to offer compensation?

A better way to get the dwarves to Bard would probably have been to introduce him as someone familiar with herb-lore, and someone the townspeople may have suggested they visit for "healing."

As it stands, Bofur's line jars significantly, and is IMO not rationalized away very easily.

Though I imagine PJ and Philippa will not address it in the commentary, my guess is that this was just a quick and expedient way of getting the dwarves back into Bard's house.


Last edited by Passdagas the Brown on Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:20 am 
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I think we can leave it at that, until or unless there is either an additional scene in the EE and/or a comment in the commentary.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:33 am 
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Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Passdagas the Brown wrote:
As I said earlier:

Quote:
Given how enthusiastically the Laketowners received the dwarves, all Fili had to say to them (or the master) is something like "we are the heirs to the throne. If you help us, there will be rich reward."

And if they still refused, out of a vague notion that they were dispensable, Fili could have said: "If Thorin's heir dies, he will be wroth."


Care to respond to this specifically? :)


The same thing I have been saying all along. The Master, the townspeople, they all saw Thorin leave these dwarves behind. Why would they even believe that Thorin would be "wroth" if he dies?


I've been trying to follow this conversation and I am still confused by this reasoning. It is possible that I missed a post, where you explained it more fully, and I apologize if I did, but how does it follow? Thorin left a wounded dwarf behind rather than risk his life on a dangerous quest. He also spared a few others to take care of him (well, Fili volunteered and Bofur missed the boat, but we are assuming that the townspeople heard nothing). Doesn't it mean that Kili is important to Thorin?

Also, Fili. Saying "I belong with my brother" is very nice and all, but he is effectively deserting his friends just as things about to get really hairy and staying behind in what at the time appears to be a safe, dwarf-friendly town.

It's just another of those moments where I'm trying to figure out what PJ is trying to do, rather than what is happening to the characters.

Also, dwarves breaking in and stealing things. Ugh.

I am not a purist, as such. I am also ridiculously easy to entertain. Barrels, wargs, white orcs, elf gymnastics - bring it on. I only complain about deviations from the book when PJ makes me go Huh? or Meh, and then I think back to the book and realize that it would be more fun if the movie did it like Tolkien wrote it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:21 am 
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Frelga wrote:
Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Passdagas the Brown wrote:
As I said earlier:

Quote:
Given how enthusiastically the Laketowners received the dwarves, all Fili had to say to them (or the master) is something like "we are the heirs to the throne. If you help us, there will be rich reward."

And if they still refused, out of a vague notion that they were dispensable, Fili could have said: "If Thorin's heir dies, he will be wroth."


Care to respond to this specifically? :)


The same thing I have been saying all along. The Master, the townspeople, they all saw Thorin leave these dwarves behind. Why would they even believe that Thorin would be "wroth" if he dies?


I've been trying to follow this conversation and I am still confused by this reasoning. It is possible that I missed a post, where you explained it more fully, and I apologize if I did, but how does it follow? Thorin left a wounded dwarf behind rather than risk his life on a dangerous quest. He also spared a few others to take care of him (well, Fili volunteered and Bofur missed the boat, but we are assuming that the townspeople heard nothing). Doesn't it mean that Kili is important to Thorin?


I am a bit confused by this as well. I refrained from repeating myself earlier, to not annoy anyone.
At least one or two people (who were close enough) will have overheard the conversation. And even not, Thorin's behavior, Thorin's gestures, the way he speaks to Kili. All of this should clarify even to the people of Laketown, that Kili is important.

Also, and I said this twice before, by refusing Kili, the Laketowners are not only risking Thorin's wrath but also the promise of gold they were given.

Also, and this also I said before, are we to believe that there is not a SINGLE person in the entire town besides Bard who has decent morals and courage enough to take them in? Sorry, but such a town doesn't exist in reality or in Tolkien's books as far as I know (I expect you to correct me of course! :) )

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:54 am 
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Smaug's Voice wrote:
At least one or two people (who were close enough) will have overheard the conversation. And even not, Thorin's behavior, Thorin's gestures, the way he speaks to Kili. All of this should clarify even to the people of Laketown, that Kili is important.


That's the point I was making when I said that it was obvious Thorin wasn't throwing Kili out by the scruff of the neck. Kili obviously showed distress but was given a slap on the back and reassurances by Thorin. Oin left the boat in a dignified manner, and it was only Fili that had an argument with Thorin, which was more strong words than fisticuffs or anything to indicate a "falling out between thieves" as such.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:23 pm 
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I think I've explained myself about as much as I am going to. Clearly I am more cynical than everyone else put together, and Jackson shares my overall low opinion of people.

Now I need to go write up a piece for TORN explaining that journalists really do make things up and that There and Back Again really isn't going to be scrapped because of the Weinstein lawsuit. So why is that I am so cynical about human nature in general?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:33 pm 
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Smaug's voice wrote:
Also, and this also I said before, are we to believe that there is not a SINGLE person in the entire town besides Bard who has decent morals and courage enough to take them in?


Well, they didn't have time to ask every single person. I figured they tried to engage a guard or bystander or two and got the brushoff, so with Kili fading fast, they gave up and just went to the one person they already knew. It's not like there were hospitals or a 911 service.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:22 pm 
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Uhm...Kili wasn't fading particularly fast when Thorin turned him away from the boat, only by the time he got to Bard's house, so perhaps that is suppose to be the indication that they spent all day going from door to door?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:33 pm 
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He was extremely pale and could barely walk. Throw in the disappointment of being left behind and the stress of being stuck outside in a strange town with no particular place to go, and I don't think it would take much longer to get to where he was when they knocked. I don't remember if the sun had moved or if there was any other obvious indication of how much time had passed...

Another factor could be that no one wants a sick, possibly contagious and possibly cursed non-human foreigner in their home.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:38 pm 
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Didn't look pale to me in all the close-ups.
And I felt his inability to walk was more due to the injury and less due to any "Morgul"-effects, if that makes any sense.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:45 pm 
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Smaug's voice wrote:
Didn't look pale to me in all the close-ups.


Really?? I thought he looked like a walking corpse by the time he and Thorin were talking in the boat.


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