Desolation of Smaug reviews

[axordil]

I do wonder if there's a cut scene, or even part of one, that would set that up better.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

V - why wouldn't anyone want to help him? I think everyone saw how fond of Kili Thorin was and that they were forced to leave him behind.
I think even that even the Master would have taken him in if only to gain favor of the townsfolk.

I disagree. You saw how fond of Kili Thorin was, because you are observant and sensitive. The people of Laketown, following the Master's lead, are neither. They would see only the surface truth; Thorin thinks of Kili as worthless baggage.

[Smaug's voice]

V - why wouldn't anyone want to
help him? I think everyone saw how fond of Kili Thorin was and that they
were forced to leave him behind.
I think even that even the Master would have taken him in if only to
gain favor of the townsfolk.

I disagree. You saw how fond of Kili Thorin was, because you are
observant and sensitive. The people of Laketown, following the Master's
lead, are neither. They would see only the surface truth; Thorin
thinks of Kili as worthless baggage.

That theme is clear in the previous scenes. But in this scene we see that Thorin cares for both Kili and the quest and is forced to choose
the latter. He even mentions that Kili was his kin and says to join them when they capture Erebor. Which makes the denial even more awkward.For if they are responsible for Kili's death, they are not only riskimg Thorin's wrath but the promised gold as well!
And are we to believe that except for Bard there is not a single person in Laketown with good morals and enough courage?

[Alatar]

At the risk of reading too much into it, I think its clear that the Laketown people are poor and more or less oppressed. With a fickle Mayor and a corrupt militia, I can see why anyone would be slow to stick their neck out in case the wind changed.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That is clear to you, but I reiterate that it would not be clear to the people of Laketown, which I think is perfectly accurate. People don't tend to see details. They see surface truths. Thorin made his nephew stay behind. Thus he is worthless baggage, and not worth bothering with.

[Smaug's voice]

Thorin says that Kili is his kin and also asks him to join later. How would atleast that bit be not clear to anyone since Thorin himself says that?

[Smaug's voice]

Btw, and this is completely OOC - I LOVE Bofur in that scene! He is drinking the wine even as he's late!
Also I think there should be a cut scene before that! There is clear evidence of a big party and we only see the remnants of it. So I am quite sure there would be an EE cut there!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Thorin says that Kili is his kin and also asks him to join later. How would atleast that bit be not clear to anyone since Thorin himself says that?

Am I somehow being unclear? You are watching a scene in a movie, paying attention to everything that is going on. The people around are not paying attention in the same way. They are not paying attention to what Thorin says, they are not paying attention to his attitude, to his body language or to anything like that. They see that Thorin leaves Kili behind. More importantly, the Master sees that. The assumption immediately becomes "he is not important." I think that it is an accurate -- though sad -- commentary on the way human nature tends to me.

[Alatar]

I love it when I post and everyone pretends I didn't.

[Passdagas the Brown]

They were all poor. They were happy enough to cheer since cheering is cheap, but even more happy to disappear when confronted with actual needs. I think most clergy and alumni relations types are familiar with the phenomenon .

Perhaps, but these townspeople were also speaking prophecies of great treasure, and cheering at the promise of it from a dwarf! Cheering may be cheap, but helping to heal a dwarf could obviously lead to some very rich rewards!

IMO, even the materially poor and self-interested argument breaks down on this one.

As for your analogy - neither my alma mater nor my church ever held out the promise of great wealth!

[Passdagas the Brown]

Thorin says that Kili is his kin and also asks him to join later. How would atleast that bit be not clear to anyone since Thorin himself says that?

Am I somehow being unclear? You are watching a scene in a movie, paying attention to everything that is going on. The people around are not paying attention in the same way. They are not paying attention to what Thorin says, they are not paying attention to his attitude, to his body language or to anything like that. They see that Thorin leaves Kili behind. More importantly, the Master sees that. The assumption immediately becomes "he is not important." I think that it is an accurate -- though sad -- commentary on the way human nature tends to me.

I understand Voronwë's perspective, and agree that how Thorin interacts with Kili is not important. It was mostly a private conversation, with possibly one or two people overhearing!

But it is, IMO, a poor justification for the scene.

Given how enthusiastically the Laketowners received the dwarves, all Fili had to say to them (or the master) is something like "we are the heirs to the throne. If you help us, there will be rich reward."

And if they still refused, out of a vague notion that they were dispensable, Fili could have said: "If Thorin's heir dies, he will be wroth."

That would have been more than enough to at least convince SOME people to help.

I am 95% convinced that the reason this happened is very simple. PJ needed a means of getting the dwarves back to Bard's so he could show us the black arrow scene, and have Bard's children be endangered by the orcs (remember his daughter Tilda was initially supposed to be healed by Tauriel, not Kili).

In this context, I think it's a sloppily executed plot point. Human nature can be very unfortunate at times, but heroic dwarves of legend that promise great wealth, especially those of the royal line, would not have been cast aside. Unless in addition to being poor, everyone in Laketown is also really, really stupid!

[Smaug's voice]

I love it when I post and everyone pretends I didn't.

I am sorry, I didn't mean to! I am outside right now and was going back abd forth with the latest comment in the thread. So I missed your post.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Did Alatar say something?

But seriously, I can understand the rationale, but it doesn't hold up IMO.

For example, before the wind changed (i.e. before the Master welcomed the dwarves) people were already sticking their necks out. They were nodding and exclaiming their support for Thorin's words before the Master supported him, for one thing. Had the master decided to throw Thorin in jail, those people may have been held suspect. So in that way, the people are not as cautious as your justification implies.

Secondly, we know from Alfrid that a section of the populace is agitating for change and a new start.

In this context, does it really make sense that not one Laketowner would offer help to Thorin's two heirs?

It doesn't, IMO. PJ was just trying to get the dwarves back to Bard to set up the orc attack (where Bard's children would be endangered) and the healing scene.

For me, this is not a huge deal. After all, I really enjoyed this film. But it does highlight what is often a rather sloppy script.

[yovargas]

I'm pretty sure the real reason is

But I'm betting PtB will say it's more likely to be
Perhaps the commentary will clarify which one of us is

[Passdagas the Brown]

Good guess, but for this one I think it's clearly:

[Voronwë the Faithful]

[anthriel]

Once again, I am overwhelmed with the pithy responses of my clearly more erudite messageboard friends.


Oh, and has anyone heard from Alatar lately? I kind of miss him around here.

[Elentári]

[Alatar]

Spammers

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Did someone say something?