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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:22 pm 
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Elsewhere, Passdagas the Brown wrote:
Elentári wrote:
Did you guys also get this?

The Five-ish Doctors Reboot

Watch out (if it's not restricted to UK viewers only) for a cameo by Gandalf and SPJ on the Dale set around the 13 minute mark...

Does he (gasp) have Radagast's staff??


That was hilarious! I love PJ pushing his AD out of the way, and the photo of PJ on McCoy's phone, holding his Oscar. And yes, McKellen seems to be holding Radagast's staff in a ruined Dale...

I am about 93% certain that Radagast will kick the bucket. Either at the close of DoS, or in TABA.


No big surprise that Gandalf would have Radagast's staff, since it is the same staff that he (Gandalf, obviously, since Radagast isn't there) has in FOTR. But is it confirmation that Radagast will be killed? One piece of contrary evidence is what John Howe said in the EE appendices. He says that by the time of LOTR, Radagast forgets his mission, forgets that he is an Istari, and becomes like a Shaman or nature spirit in the forest. That suggests to me that he does not die, but rather passes his staff to Gandalf (perhaps because Gandalf's staff is broken, maybe by the Witchking!) because the Grey Wizard has a greater need of it, and Radagast then passes out of the story, explaining his absence in LOTR. Howe's comments are true to what Tolkien wrote, as quoted in UT ("For Radagast, the fourth, became enamoured of the many beasts and birds that dwelt in Middle-earth, and forsook Elves and Men, and spent his days among wild creatures"), other than that the timing is wrong. Radagast obviously is still aware of his mission in LOTR in the books. So the question is, was Howe discussing Radagast as written by Tolkien, and just misstating as to the timing, was he (as PtB has suggested) just talking about their conception for Radagast, or was he revealing Radagast's ultimate film-fate?

I am betting on the latter.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:14 pm 
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As you noted, I got the distinct sense that Howe was talking about the concept of Radagast, which he drew from Tolkien, and not Radagast's actual fate in the film-verse. Frankly, I don't think PJ would have let a spoiler like that slip.

I am also having a hard time understanding why Radagast would give Gandalf his staff. Perhaps he will decide to fade into the forest, etc, but would he abandon his staff for that purpose? Perhaps. But it will be a difficult concept to convey in PJ's film-verse. Much easier to have him die, and for Gandalf to acquire his staff. As Joe Pesci might say: "Take the staff. Leave the conigli."

Also, I think PB and J will want to have a death in DoS to raise the stakes. And Radagast is a prime candidate.

Though he could also kick the bucket in TABA, I think he'll be offed this December.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:29 pm 
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I agree that Howe was referring to the inspiration behind Radagast's design coming from Tolkien's own hints and ideas.

However I don't necessarily think Radagast will be killed in a clear cut manner. Also, hasn't McCoy been quoted as saying he would be in all three films?

ETA: Yep, it's here:

Quote:
In this interview of the actors on the AirNZ Hobbit plane, Mr. Campbell interviews McCoy. At 3:55 into it,

Campbell: What's it like? Is it something you feel very proud of?

McCoy: Proud isn't the word! Proud, it's just ...it's awesome! No Honestly! I mean it really is. I mean...in three of them! I mean, for years you wait for a Hollywood film to come along and then, like London buses, three come along at the same time. It's great!

John Campbell aboard The Hobbit plane

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:36 pm 
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Elentári wrote:
I agree that Howe was referring to the inspiration behind Radagast's design coming from Tolkien's own hints and ideas.


I don't agree. I've watched that a couple of times now, and I just don't have that sense. Plus, John Howe knows Tolkien very well, and knows very well that Radagast was present during the time of LOTR, and any fading into the forest happened after that time. There is no reason why he would have been so specific about saying where Radagast was during the time LOTR if he was just talking about Radagast's design coming from Tolkien's ideas.

smelly wizard wrote:
I am also having a hard time understanding why Radagast would give Gandalf his staff. Perhaps he will decide to fade into the forest, etc, but would he abandon his staff for that purpose?


No, I don't think he would abandon his staff for that purpose. I think he would abandon his staff because he knows that Gandalf has the greater need for it, and the greater power to wield it, and voluntarily gives it up for the greater good, after Gandalf loses his own staff, or has it broken, or whatever.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:38 pm 
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Elentári wrote:
I agree that Howe was referring to the inspiration behind Radagast's design coming from Tolkien's own hints and ideas.

However I don't necessarily think Radagast will be killed in a clear cut manner. Also, hasn't McCoy been quoted as saying he would be in all three films?

ETA: Yep, it's here:

Quote:
In this interview of the actors on the AirNZ Hobbit plane, Mr. Campbell interviews McCoy. At 3:55 into it,

Campbell: What's it like? Is it something you feel very proud of?

McCoy: Proud isn't the word! Proud, it's just ...it's awesome! No Honestly! I mean it really is. I mean...in three of them! I mean, for years you wait for a Hollywood film to come along and then, like London buses, three come along at the same time. It's great!

John Campbell aboard The Hobbit plane


To me, this means he will either die in TABA, or die in DOS, and feature in a flashback in TABA.

Remember, Sean Bean was in the ROTK EE as well. :)

He may not die, of course. But I think the evidence is pointing towards yes...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:41 pm 
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I'm pretty sure that Christopher Lee thought he was going to be in all three LOTR theatrical editions, once his character wasn't killed in TTT. ;)

ETA: Still, I don't think he is going to die.

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Last edited by Voronwë the Faithful on Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:42 pm 
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Quote:
There is no reason why he would have been so specific about saying where Radagast was during the time LOTR if he was just talking about Radagast's design coming from Tolkien's ideas.


If you think about his comment less from a strictly literal and analytical perspective, and more from the perspective of a conceptual artist (which is what Howe is) there is more than enough of a "reason" for him to mix "concept" with the text, in the same breath. You may be right, of course, but his tone and way of describing Radagast struck me as him elaborating on a concept in order to convey the essence of the character.


Last edited by Passdagas the Brown on Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:49 pm 
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Passdagas the Brown wrote:
Voronew the Faithful wrote:
There is no reason why he would have been so specific about saying where Radagast was during the time LOTR if he was just talking about Radagast's design coming from Tolkien's ideas.


If you think about his comment less from a strictly literal and analytical perspective, and more from the perspective of a conceptual artist (which is what Howe is) there is more than enough of a "reason" for him to mix "concept" with the text, in the same breath. You may be right, of course, but his tone and way of describing Radagast struck me as an elaborating on a concept in order to convey the essence of the character.


I haven't watched the Appendices yet, so may be I should have reserved my opinion until I have!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:50 pm 
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smelly wrote:
If you think about his comment less from a strictly literal and analytical perspective, and more from the perspective of a conceptual artist (which is what Howe is) there is more than enough of a "reason" for him to mix "concept" with the text, in the same breath. You may be right, of course, but his tone and way of describing Radagast struck me as an elaborating on a concept in order to convey the essence of the character.


But why would he make a comment that was so wrong as to what Tolkien wrote (as to him being gone by the time of LOTR) if he was just referring to concept art? If he was just talking about a concept in order to convey the essence of the character, I would think he would have said something like "after the time of LOTR he forgets his mission and that he is one of the Istari and becomes a forest spirit ... ." Or even just "eventually he forgets his mission and that he is one of the Istari and becomes a forest spirit ... ." It is the fact that he so specifically says "during the time of LOTR" and the fact that he knows that isn't true to what Tolkien wrote that I find so telling.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:57 pm 
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Well, "during the time of LOTR" Radagast has, by one interpretation, basically given up the fight. He is used as a tool by Saruman to lure Gandalf into a trap, but he doesn't actively or consciously participate in opposing the rise of Sauron. This is very different to how Radagast is being portrayed in AUJ, where he is trying to heal Mirkwood's ills, enters Dol Guldur to investigate, discovers the Necromancer, and then rushes to Gandalf for help. He's fighting the good fight.

So, Howe could easily have been talking about the difference between film Radagast in AUJ, and book Radagast "in the time of LOTR," and using that difference to highlight a conceptual characteristic of Radagast, which is a tendency to slowly fade from human affairs and into the world of flora and fauna.

Perhaps he'll fade by film 3, and leave his staff behind in Rhosgobel with a note for Gandalf. But I think it will be dramatically easier for PJ (plus, more consistent with his style) to have him killed in action.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:01 pm 
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I haven't seen any of the appendices so I cannot comment on that.

But I'd be quite sad, actually, if Radagast dies. I just can't picture a wizard dying.

I think it can play out like this:
After TABA, Gandalf's staff is broken. And Radagast simply refuses to have any dealings with the Council of the Wizards anymore (a post-war trauma?) and leaves it saying, he will spend the rest of his life in the woods peacefully and gives away his staff in resignation. Or gifts his staff to Gandalf as a token of all their dealings with the Necromancer. It really isn't too difficult to write and shoot, I think.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:06 pm 
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But we have seen images of Gandalf with Radagast's staff in a ruined Dale (probably from the BoFA), so if this happens, it either happens in DoS or sometime early in TABA.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:11 pm 
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Smaug's voice wrote:
But I'd be quite sad, actually, if Radagast dies. I just can't picture a wizard dying.


Have you not seen the extended edition of "The Return of the King"?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:17 pm 
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Passdagas the Brown wrote:
But we have seen images of Gandalf with Radagast's staff in a ruined Dale (probably from the BoFA), so if this happens, it either happens in DoS or sometime early in TABA.


It occurs to me that we may not be able to trust that image too far, as it is in the Dr. Who clip and features Sir PJ asking Sir IM to do a scene (presumably one that is supposed to have both Gandalf and Radagast) alone.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:20 pm 
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Beutlin wrote:
Smaug's voice wrote:
But I'd be quite sad, actually, if Radagast dies. I just can't picture a wizard dying.


Have you not seen the extended edition of "The Return of the King"?


Oh yeah. Amend it to a "good wizard". :bow:
If he dies, I would me more shattered for him than for Thorin and Fikili.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:44 pm 
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Another argument for him dying in DOS - TABA will have its quota of canon heroic deaths.

I mean, IF he dies.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:47 pm 
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Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Passdagas the Brown wrote:
But we have seen images of Gandalf with Radagast's staff in a ruined Dale (probably from the BoFA), so if this happens, it either happens in DoS or sometime early in TABA.


It occurs to me that we may not be able to trust that image too far, as it is in the Dr. Who clip and features Sir PJ asking Sir IM to do a scene (presumably one that is supposed to have both Gandalf and Radagast) alone.


True, though I believe an image of Gandalf with Radagast's staff emerged earlier. In a vlog somewhere? Can't remember.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:55 pm 
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Frelga wrote:
Another argument for him dying in DOS - TABA will have its quota of canon heroic deaths.

I mean, IF he dies.


Agreed. If he dies, it should be in DoS. If he just fades into the forest, it could be in TaBA.

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