Outdoor Adventure and Natural Hazards in DoS

[Passdagas the Brown]

Which fan edit, by the way? There seem to be quite a few out there...

[yovargas]

This one:

http://thehalloffire.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3439

It cuts out the Giants in a beautifully seamless way leaving just a treacherous pass through the mountain.


Another reason the line doesn't work: at this point in the movie, Thorin hasn't been any more useful than Bilbo so where does he get off calling Bilbo useless?

[Smaug's voice]

That enhances the irrelevance of it.

So you do agree, that it is irrelevant to the plot.

Critics had as much as a problem with it's unrealisticness as it being a
scene based on just two sentences from the book. i.e. not at all
relevant to the book and yet implementing in the cinema.

A scene is important to the film if, when removed, it creates a gap in
the storyline. Whether that be plot-wise, or character development-wise.
In the book that was not necessary for the plot in anyway neither did
it build up the character for Bilbo or any of the dwarves. It was just
another "Oh look, those are things I have never seen before!" scene
which works perfectly for a book. A book can take it's time to build
and develop it's world even at the cost of plot, and it doesn't hurt it.

However, adding a scene to a film which neither adds to the story, nor
adds to the characters is, imho, just padding. And yes, as you said,
making the scene unrealistic added to it's irrelevance.

It's only potentially irrelevant, IMO, if it includes irrelevant
"baddies" attacking the group in a drawn out and ridiculous manner.
Crossing the mountains, however, is a key moment of a central part of
the plot which is "getting to the mountain!"

Also, I do not agree at all with the textbook definition of "relevance
to plot," etc. That's far too script-writing 101 for me to accept. This
is art, not math, and the definition of "relevance" is very, very
subjective. You say "plot-wise" or "character-wise" but what about
"thematic-wise" and "visual'wise?" There are far more dimensions in film
than plot and character, and I believe in breaking these rules of thumb
that strip film down to two parts (as I think most great filmmakers
do).

A visually relevant scene should be added only if doesn't slow down the story. Its a fact, imo, that PJ thought that most of them got in the way of storytelling and hence he didnt include them, his choice.

Yes its relevant to show them crossing the mountains but is it relevant to show every hurdle and difficulty they faced while crossing? No. But hey, I am really not as knowledgable on the subject of film-making as you (honest). I am just going by what I feel is good film making.
And if in case this wasn(t clear till now, I am not supporting the choices. I would have loved to see some natural obstacles. I am just
trying to place myself in PJ's thinking cap to understand why he did what he did.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Oh, I do think that PJ follows some of the logic you laid out. I just find that logic to be needlessly limiting.

[Smaug's voice]

First
of all, I would like to point out that I am certainly not a great fan
of the Stone Giants scene. The scene contained three near-death
situations (half of the group, Bilbo, Thorin), yet still failed to evoke
any danger.

Nevertheless, Thorin’s “He’s been lost ever since he left home” line was
not out of character at all, in my opinion. It shows, not for the first
time, that Thorin can be pretty irrational sometimes. After nearly
having lost half of his company and his own life, Thorin just loses his
cool and must blame Bilbo for the horrible situation they are in. This
reminded me a lot of book-Thorin who is also quick to blame others for
his misery.

Therefore I think for Thorin the scene went somewhat like this: He
watches as half of his company including his dear nephews is evidently
crushed by a huge wall of rock. Thorin loses his posture and shouts out
in despair. Seconds later he realizes that those guys have not died
after all, only to find out that their burglar is in great peril. The
leader that he is, he immediately tries to rescue Bilbo and nearly falls
to his own death. This infuriates the mighty dwarf-king (I could have
nearly died saving an ordinary burglar!) and he must blame Bilbo for
that. Surely not fair too Bilbo but book-Thorin did not leave a
completely rational and fair impression on me either.

Maybe the writers did not intend it that way but I am perfectly fine
seeing it that way.

Great post, Beautlin. I actually got a similar sense of that dialogue too. It's not great writing, but decent enough. And not out of character at all for Thorin!

[Smaug's voice]

Another reason the line doesn't work: at this point in the movie, Thorin
hasn't been any more useful than Bilbo so where does he get off calling
Bilbo useless?

That IS Thorin by all counts, isn't it? He was more of an arrogant jerk in the book and though less, we see that jerk here too.

[Passdagas the Brown]

This one:

http://thehalloffire.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3439

It cuts out the Giants in a beautifully seamless way leaving just a treacherous pass through the mountain.


Another reason the line doesn't work: at this point in the movie, Thorin hasn't been any more useful than Bilbo so where does he get off calling Bilbo useless?

That doesn't bother me, because Thorin is essentially a douche in both film and movie. It really is the extreme ridiculousness of the scene that kills it. I mean, after a death-ride on the knees of fighting giants the size of mountains, that's what he says?