Outdoor Adventure and Natural Hazards in DoS

[Smaug's voice]

That enhances the irrelevance of it.

So you do agree, that it is irrelevant to the plot.

Critics had as much as a problem with it's unrealisticness as it being a scene based on just two sentences from the book. i.e. not at all relevant to the book and yet implementing in the cinema.

A scene is important to the film if, when removed, it creates a gap in the storyline. Whether that be plot-wise, or character development-wise. In the book that was not necessary for the plot in anyway neither did it build up the character for Bilbo or any of the dwarves. It was just another "Oh look, those are things I have never seen before!" scene which works perfectly for a book. A book can take it's time to build and develop it's world even at the cost of plot, and it doesn't hurt it.
However, adding a scene to a film which neither adds to the story, nor adds to the characters is, imho, just padding. And yes, as you said, making the scene unrealistic added to it's irrelevance.

[Elentári]

This is slightly coincidental to the point being made, but since it concerns the Stone Giants sequence, the pick-up they shot just so that Bilbo's relationship with Thorin could take a downward turn, with Bilbo having fallen off the ledge when the "knee" half the party are riding on crashes into the side of the mountain, was beyond belief to me. Why should Bilbo be blamed for being the only one to not keep his balance after such a shake-up?

[sauronsfinger]

This is slightly coincidental to the point being made, but since it concerns the Stone Giants sequence, the pick-up they shot just so that Bilbo's relationship with Thorin could take a downward turn, with Bilbo having fallen off the ledge when the "knee" half the party are riding on crashes into the side of the mountain, was beyond belief to me. Why should Bilbo be blamed for being the only one to not keep his balance after such a shake-up?

Good point. I especially liked that also.

[Passdagas the Brown]

That enhances the irrelevance of it.

So you do agree, that it is irrelevant to the plot.

Critics had as much as a problem with it's unrealisticness as it being a scene based on just two sentences from the book. i.e. not at all relevant to the book and yet implementing in the cinema.

A scene is important to the film if, when removed, it creates a gap in the storyline. Whether that be plot-wise, or character development-wise. In the book that was not necessary for the plot in anyway neither did it build up the character for Bilbo or any of the dwarves. It was just another "Oh look, those are things I have never seen before!" scene which works perfectly for a book. A book can take it's time to build and develop it's world even at the cost of plot, and it doesn't hurt it.
However, adding a scene to a film which neither adds to the story, nor adds to the characters is, imho, just padding. And yes, as you said, making the scene unrealistic added to it's irrelevance.

It's only potentially irrelevant, IMO, if it includes irrelevant "baddies" attacking the group in a drawn out and ridiculous manner. Crossing the mountains, however, is a key moment of a central part of the plot which is "getting to the mountain!"

Also, I do not agree at all with the textbook definition of "relevance to plot," etc. That's far too script-writing 101 for me to accept. This is art, not math, and the definition of "relevance" is very, very subjective. You say "plot-wise" or "character-wise" but what about "thematic-wise" and "visual'wise?" There are far more dimensions in film than plot and character, and I believe in breaking these rules of thumb that strip film down to two parts (as I think most great filmmakers do).

[Passdagas the Brown]

This is slightly coincidental to the point being made, but since it concerns the Stone Giants sequence, the pick-up they shot just so that Bilbo's relationship with Thorin could take a downward turn, with Bilbo having fallen off the ledge when the "knee" half the party are riding on crashes into the side of the mountain, was beyond belief to me. Why should Bilbo be blamed for being the only one to not keep his balance after such a shake-up?

Good point. I especially liked that also.

I'm confused. I believe Elentári was sharply criticizing that moment in the film, not praising it.

Why indeed was Thorin angry at Bilbo for falling, after such an insane scene, where Thorin had assumed that they all were dead? Almost shockingly shoddy screen-writing, IMO.

A book can take it's time to build and develop it's world even at the cost of plot, and it doesn't hurt it.

I have seen many great films take their time to build and develop a world. I strongly disagree with the idea that this is a luxury of literature, and non-translatable to the screen. There have been too many filmmakers who have succeeded at what you say is impossible.

[yovargas]

This is slightly coincidental to the point being made, but since it concerns the Stone Giants sequence, the pick-up they shot just so that Bilbo's relationship with Thorin could take a downward turn, with Bilbo having fallen off the ledge when the "knee" half the party are riding on crashes into the side of the mountain, was beyond belief to me. Why should Bilbo be blamed for being the only one to not keep his balance after such a shake-up?

Absolute low point of the movie IMO. Possibly all the movies.

[Passdagas the Brown]

This is slightly coincidental to the point being made, but since it concerns the Stone Giants sequence, the pick-up they shot just so that Bilbo's relationship with Thorin could take a downward turn, with Bilbo having fallen off the ledge when the "knee" half the party are riding on crashes into the side of the mountain, was beyond belief to me. Why should Bilbo be blamed for being the only one to not keep his balance after such a shake-up?

Absolute low point of the movie IMO. Possibly all the movies.

Agreed. There were an infinite number of better options. Infinite. Bilbo, for example - once in the cave - could have complained about the serious discomforts of mountain-climbing, and say something like "I could use a cup of tea." That, or a million other interactions with Bilbo, could have annoyed Thorin and started the downward spiral.

Instead, PJ and the award-winning scriptwriters decide that Thorin gets irreversibly angry at Bilbo for almost falling off a ledge after having been slammed against a mountain by a massive stone giant?

Were they high that day?

[Beutlin]

First of all, I would like to point out that I am certainly not a great fan of the Stone Giants scene. The scene contained three near-death situations (half of the group, Bilbo, Thorin), yet still failed to evoke any danger.

Nevertheless, Thorin’s “He’s been lost ever since he left home” line was not out of character at all, in my opinion. It shows, not for the first time, that Thorin can be pretty irrational sometimes. After nearly having lost half of his company and his own life, Thorin just loses his cool and must blame Bilbo for the horrible situation they are in. This reminded me a lot of book-Thorin who is also quick to blame others for his misery.

Therefore I think for Thorin the scene went somewhat like this: He watches as half of his company including his dear nephews is evidently crushed by a huge wall of rock. Thorin loses his posture and shouts out in despair. Seconds later he realizes that those guys have not died after all, only to find out that their burglar is in great peril. The leader that he is, he immediately tries to rescue Bilbo and nearly falls to his own death. This infuriates the mighty dwarf-king (I could have nearly died saving an ordinary burglar!) and he must blame Bilbo for that. Surely not fair too Bilbo but book-Thorin did not leave a completely rational and fair impression on me either.

Maybe the writers did not intend it that way but I am perfectly fine seeing it that way.

[Elentári]

Were they high that day?

Well, I'd imagine those mushroom spores from the Mirkwood set get everywhere...

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Well said, Beutlin.

[Passdagas the Brown]

First of all, I would like to point out that I am certainly not a great fan of the Stone Giants scene. The scene contained three near-death situations (half of the group, Bilbo, Thorin), yet still failed to evoke any danger.

Nevertheless, Thorin’s “He’s been lost ever since he left home” line was not out of character at all, in my opinion. It shows, not for the first time, that Thorin can be pretty irrational sometimes. After nearly having lost half of his company and his own life, Thorin just loses his cool and must blame Bilbo for the horrible situation they are in. This reminded me a lot of book-Thorin who is also quick to blame others for his misery.

Therefore I think for Thorin the scene went somewhat like this: He watches as half of his company including his dear nephews is evidently crushed by a huge wall of rock. Thorin loses his posture and shouts out in despair. Seconds later he realizes that those guys have not died after all, only to find out that their burglar is in great peril. The leader that he is, he immediately tries to rescue Bilbo and nearly falls to his own death. This infuriates the mighty dwarf-king (I could have nearly died saving an ordinary burglar!) and he must blame Bilbo for that. Surely not fair too Bilbo but book-Thorin did not leave a completely rational and fair impression on me either.

Maybe the writers did not intend it that way but I am perfectly fine seeing it that way.

I certainly see the rationale in that, but the way it plays out on screen is so ridiculous (particularly given the ridiculous scenario they were in) that it just doesn't work.

Yes, Thorin may have been upset with putting his life at risk for Bilbo. But just moments earlier, he thought they were all dead, and was absolutely shocked that they weren't. To then get angry at Bilbo for having almost fallen, and then get angry for having to save him, is certainly possible if one extrapolates Thorin's character to an extreme, seriously cartoonish degree, but this rationale just plays out foolishly on screen. It comes off as contrived conflict, similar to Gandalf's "who did you tell?" line to Thorin, but worse.

I believe the late 3-movie decision led them to rush for a moment to build Thorin's anger towards Bilbo, and this was the sub par result they came up with (but perhaps better than nothing). It was shot during pick-ups, when they also rushed a lot of the Azog material.

In a 2-film Hobbit, this scene would almost certainly not have existed.

Something can be "in character," but still be so extremely nonsensical that it doesn't work. This is one of those scenes, IMO.

[Beutlin]

Once more, I have to disagree.

I know from first-hand experience that people can say pretty irrational things in extreme situations. And not just the usual idiots do that. Dwalin pretty much says “I thought we lost our burglar” the moment the danger has passed. Thorin, feeling the need to say something, and still full of adrenalin, must project his shock/anger for nearly having died onto Bilbo – whom he does not like anyway and who nearly got him killed a couple of moments ago. I do not consider that cartoonish. It is Thorin’s pride which leads him to attack Bilbo – one of Thorin’s greatest flaws and by any means a weakness of many historical kings and princes.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Loving having someone else make my arguments for me before I get to them. That's twice in a row that you basically said what I would have said.

[yovargas]

Wow. I am genuinely shocked that anyone would defend that moment. I think you may have watched a different AUJ than I did.....

[Frelga]

That scene certainly felt clumsy. On the other hand, book dwarves frequently grumble at Bilbo, sometimes right after he rescues them. I can buy, at great discount, that Thorin was rattled by the near loss and near death so that he just blurbed out all the hostile feelings he already had against Bilbo. Thorin clearly isn't pleased by the prospect of bringing the hobbit from the very start.

And I quite like that what seems to displease Thorin is that he is made to feel responsible for this vulnerable creature. Unlike the book, where dwarves always push Bilbo forward into any danger, these dwarves protect him.

[yovargas]

I just re-watched it (in the vastly superior Rock Giant-less fan edit version) and here's why none of these excuses actually work - he's not actually mad. He doesn't raise his voice, he's doesn't yell, he doesn't look agitated, he doesn't seem "still full of adrenalin". He doesn't scream "Damnit Bilbo, what use are you!! " He's actually pretty darn calm. Almost stoic. It's not angry lashing out. He just decides to casually throw out a couple wildly assholish insults to a guy who slipped and nearly fell to his death. It's not "Argh, this all sucks!!". It's "Hey Bilbo, just FYI, I don't like you. Now seemed a good time to tell you. Now let's go find a cave".

[Passdagas the Brown]

Once more, I have to disagree.

I know from first-hand experience that people can say pretty irrational things in extreme situations. And not just the usual idiots do that. Dwalin pretty much says “I thought we lost our burglar” the moment the danger has passed. Thorin, feeling the need to say something, and still full of adrenalin, must project his shock/anger for nearly having died onto Bilbo – whom he does not like anyway and who nearly got him killed a couple of moments ago. I do not consider that cartoonish. It is Thorin’s pride which leads him to attack Bilbo – one of Thorin’s greatest flaws and by any means a weakness of many historical kings and princes.

Again, I agree that the rationale works for the character in general. But the context is very, very important here. Yes, I have heard prideful people say irrationally mean things in the heat of the moment. But in this case, we had dwarves and a hobbit riding on the knees of a mountain-sized humanoid!

That's very, very different than, say, my brother-in-law getting angry at me because I was driving his car, and someone ran a red light and side-swiped the rear. That's understandable, d1ckish behavior.

But "He's been lost ever since he left home!" because he almost falls after being slammed against a mountain by another mountain? It just strains suspension of disbelief beyond the limits.

The whole scenario serves to make it silly, not just Thorin's reaction. It is the three near-deaths (as you point out), the fact that they were running along the knees of a giant, the fact that they all escape unscathed, and the collective preposterous-ness of it all, that all conspires to make Thorin's line seem incredibly clumsy.

On the other hand, I perfectly understood Thorin's rationale for being annoyed with Bilbo after the troll fight (when he says "no thanks to your burglar" to Gandalf). Bilbo got himself into trouble, through his attempt at stealing back the ponies, and it almost endangered all their lives.

But in that case, the scenario, though fantastical, was still plausible. And while Thorin comes across as ungrateful, the line rings truer than the one in the Misty Mountains.

In short, your rationale makes a lot of sense in terms of the broad sketch of Thorin's film character. But the ridiculous circumstances make it, IMO, just a sloppy attempt at amping up the conflict.

IMO.

ETA: I also just watched it again, and agree with yov. It does indeed come across as a calculated statement.

[Beutlin]

I just re-watched it (in the vastly superior Rock Giant-less fan edit version) and here's why none of these excuses actually work - he's not actually mad. He doesn't raise his voice, he's doesn't yell, he doesn't look agitated, he doesn't seem "still full of adrenalin". He doesn't scream "Damnit Bilbo, what use are you!! " He's actually pretty darn calm. Almost stoic. It's not angry lashing out. He just decides to casually throw out a couple wildly assholish insults to a guy who slipped and nearly fell to his death. It's not "Argh, this all sucks!!". It's "Hey Bilbo, just FYI, I don't like you. Now seemed a good time to tell you. Now let's go find a cave".

I do not consider my interpretation of this scene a mere collection of “excuses”. And I would not say he just casually throws out a couple of insults. He does not just say it out of context. He reacts to Dwalin’s line (which specifically refers to Bilbo as their burglar) and just cannot help himself to chastise Bilbo, voicing out loud what he thinks of Gandalf’s burglar. In other words: Thorin has thought of Bilbo as superfluous baggage from the beginning and now, after having nearly been killed while saving Bilbo, his assessment of Bilbo has apparently been confirmed. All Bilbo can do is pull one of the dwarf’s to his death.

I certainly understand why some of you do not like this scene. And I even would have preferred a different way of explicitly showing Thorin’s contempt for Bilbo. And I agree that this was probably a result of the three-movie-decision. But I do not consider Thorin’s reaction out of character.

Edit: Edited out the futile line. What I wanted to say is that we have both voiced our opinion on this matter and I do not want to repeat myself.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Not sure why discussion is futile. I agree that the line is in character with film Thorin. Very much so. It's just the context that ruins it, IMO.

[yovargas]

As a sidenote - the fan edit makes this scene exactly what you want in this thread: The danger of nature. I like it.