Peter Jackson Hates Railings

[Passdagas the Brown]

Perhaps the handrails are invisible, and only Bilbo can see them in the shadow world?

[kzer_za]

When I saw this topic title, the first thing I thought of was Space Mutiny, an awful sci-fi movie that got a hilarious MST3K episode. People fall over railings as they die a LOT in that film, and the commenting crew had a real field day making jokes about the "railing kills."

[KW]

Tolkien had a phrase for this: willing suspension of disbelief.

Jackson just tweaks it a little: unlikely suspension of all known laws of physics.

Hey, just jumping in because this was a bit of Tolkien's essay that I always found interesting but I often see people link the concept with Tolkien incorrectly (I don't know if that's what you were actually doing, so apologies if I read it wrong). It wasn't Tolkien's phrase. Sort of the opposite. There's a nice entry on Wikipedia about the history and interpretation of the term that also includes a summary of Tolkien's view.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief

And here is the full quote:

"Children are capable, of course, of literary belief, when the story-maker's art is good enough to produce it. That state of mind has been called "willing suspension of disbelief." But this does not seem to me a good description of what happens. What really happens is that the story-maker proves a successful "sub-creator." He makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is "true": it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again, looking at the little abortive Secondary World from outside. If you are obliged, by kindliness or circumstance, to stay, then disbelief must be suspended (or stifled), otherwise listening and looking would become intolerable. But this suspension of disbelief is a substitute for the genuine thing, a subterfuge we use when condescending to games or make-believe, or when trying ... to find what virtue we can in the work of an art that has for us failed."

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Hi KW!

I don't think that you and Wampus are really in disagreement. For Tolkien, the importance was in there being enough skill in creating a secondary world that an element that would not be possible in the real world becomes believable in the secondary world. The credible green sun, as it were. As Tolkien famously stated:

Anyone inheriting the fantastic device of human language can say the green sun. Many can then imagine or picture it. But that is not enough -- though it may already be a more potent thing than many a 'thumbnail sketch' or 'transcript of life' that receives literary praise.

To make a Secondary World inside which the green sun will be credible, commanding Secondary Belief, will probably require labour and thought, and will certainly demand a special skill, a kind of elvish craft. Few attempt such difficult tasks. But when they are attempted and in any degree accomplished then we have a rare achievement of Art: indeed narrative art, story-making in its primary and most potent mode.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Hi KW!

I don't think that you and Wampus are really in disagreement. For Tolkien, the importance was in there being enough skill in creating a secondary world that an element that would not be possible in the real world becomes believable in the secondary world. The credible green sun, as it were. As Tolkien famously stated:

Anyone inheriting the fantastic device of human language can say the green sun. Many can then imagine or picture it. But that is not enough -- though it may already be a more potent thing than many a 'thumbnail sketch' or 'transcript of life' that receives literary praise.

To make a Secondary World inside which the green sun will be credible, commanding Secondary Belief, will probably require labour and thought, and will certainly demand a special skill, a kind of elvish craft. Few attempt such difficult tasks. But when they are attempted and in any degree accomplished then we have a rare achievement of Art: indeed narrative art, story-making in its primary and most potent mode.

And that's one of the key reasons Jackson fails, in my view. He is not only not skilled enough, but he doesn't believe in the secondary world enough to trust its rules and devices. Therefore, we get camp, winking at the camera, terrible jokes, ridiculous stunts, etc.

He was more successful in LOTR, but even there, I felt I was watching a Middle Earth Ren Fair as opposed to the real thing.

[yovargas]

Anyone inheriting the fantastic device of human language can say the green sun. Many can then imagine or picture it. But that is not enough -- though it may already be a more potent thing than many a 'thumbnail sketch' or 'transcript of life' that receives literary praise.

To make a Secondary World inside which the green sun will be credible, commanding Secondary Belief, will probably require labour and thought, and will certainly demand a special skill, a kind of elvish craft. Few attempt such difficult tasks. But when they are attempted and in any degree accomplished then we have a rare achievement of Art: indeed narrative art, story-making in its primary and most potent mode.

I like that quote.

[KW]

Hi KW!

I don't think that you and Wampus are really in disagreement. For Tolkien, the importance was in there being enough skill in creating a secondary world that an element that would not be possible in the real world becomes believable in the secondary world. The credible green sun, as it were. As Tolkien famously stated:

Anyone inheriting the fantastic device of human language can say the green sun. Many can then imagine or picture it. But that is not enough -- though it may already be a more potent thing than many a 'thumbnail sketch' or 'transcript of life' that receives literary praise.

To make a Secondary World inside which the green sun will be credible, commanding Secondary Belief, will probably require labour and thought, and will certainly demand a special skill, a kind of elvish craft. Few attempt such difficult tasks. But when they are attempted and in any degree accomplished then we have a rare achievement of Art: indeed narrative art, story-making in its primary and most potent mode.

Hello! Yeah, as I said I wasn't sure there. It was the seeming attribution of the phrase to Tolkien that was throwing me off. Mainly because I've noticed several occasions on other forums where some participants would cite suspension of disbelief in a seemingly un-Tolkien fashion to refute criticisms such as the ones Passdagas has expressed. Clearly that wasn't the intent of Wampus here but the waters have been muddied enough around the net that I felt like chiming in.

[KW]

I like that quote.

Indeed! I really enjoy reading gems like this from artists on their craft and Tolkien was full of them.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yeah, as I said I wasn't sure there. It was the seeming attribution of the phrase to Tolkien that was throwing me off. Mainly because I've noticed several occasions on other forums where some participants would cite suspension of disbelief in a seemingly un-Tolkien fashion to refute criticisms such as the ones Passdagas has expressed. Clearly that wasn't the intent of Wampus here but the waters have been muddied enough around the net that I felt like chiming in.

And I'm glad you did!

[Dave_LF]

This is pretty funny (and partially on topic):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LDhsH79jAY

Bleeped language warning.

[sinister71]

This is pretty funny (and partially on topic):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LDhsH79jAY

Bleeped language warning.

OMG love it and he is spot on about ALL OF IT.

Love the Benny Hill music during Radagast's chase scene so appropriate

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I've seen that before. I think it was posted here, but I'm not sure. I wasn't impressed then, and I'm not impressed now.

[Primula Baggins]

Our sun is green. Its spectral peak is in the green region of the spectrum.

What is this "Secondary World" of which you speak?

[WampusCat]

KW, thanks for clarifying my drive-by comment. I meant that Tolkien wrote about the phrase ("On Fairy Stories" was where I first heard of it), not that he either created it or approved of it. But since I didn't say one way or the other, it was certainly right of you to set the record straight.

[Passdagas the Brown]

This is pretty funny (and partially on topic):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LDhsH79jAY

Bleeped language warning.

OMG love it and he is spot on about ALL OF IT.

Love the Benny Hill music during Radagast's chase scene so appropriate

I really have no respect for the criticism of the dwarven singing. I also am baffled by those who feel the film was too long in its set up, particularly as FOTR's set-up, before Frodo runs off with Sam towards Bree, is technically longer.

IMO, Peter Jackson is at his best when he is "setting things up." His prologues and character introductions are spot on, and sometimes, perfect. Even better than my imagination.

It's when he gets on the road that the quality of his films takes a nosedive, IMO.

From my perspective, the best parts of all of his films are their beginnings (barring the ROTK opener, which I thought was less effective than it could have been).

[sinister71]

Don't get me wrong PtB I love the beginning of the film I think Baggend is the best part of the film. It stuck closer to the book but yet added little bits which worked. I love the songs in Baggend they were great, the misty mountains cold gave me goosebumps the first time I heard it... I do agree once they got on the road the film took a serious nose dive IMO. I hear people complaining that the beginning is too long as well but the parts that stuck to the book like Baggend were just a joy for me to watch and IMO were just right and not over drawn. Now parts like Goblin Town those were too drawn out but the parts that felt like the book I felt were spot on.

I will say I hated to prologue though. When you read what they could have been from the appendices and what Jackson actually gave us on film. The film version is completely horrible in comparison. might be ok if you don't know the story but in the context it was done and characters that appear later in the story play important parts in that prologue. Why didn't they stick to the way the story went instead of making horrible needless changes to the story. Which now has altered those characters who become important later in the actual story. Now they have to make up something else to make it all make sense. Seems to me it would have made more sense to stick to the story instead of making up more and more fan fiction elements.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Don't get me wrong PtB I love the beginning of the film I think Baggend is the best part of the film. It stuck closer to the book but yet added little bits which worked. I love the songs in Baggend they were great, the misty mountains cold gave me goosebumps the first time I heard it... I do agree once they got on the road the film took a serious nose dive IMO. I hear people complaining that the beginning is too long as well but the parts that stuck to the book like Baggend were just a joy for me to watch and IMO were just right and not over drawn. Now parts like Goblin Town those were too drawn out but the parts that felt like the book I felt were spot on.

I will say I hated to prologue though. When you read what they could have been from the appendices and what Jackson actually gave us on film. The film version is completely horrible in comparison. might be ok if you don't know the story but in the context it was done and characters that appear later in the story play important parts in that prologue. Why didn't they stick to the way the story went instead of making horrible needless changes to the story. Which now has altered those characters who become important later in the actual story. Now they have to make up something else to make it all make sense. Seems to me it would have made more sense to stick to the story instead of making up more and more fan fiction elements.

I would have crafted the prologue very differently, but in the context of an otherwise mess of a film, the prologue and the Bag End scenes work the best as pieces of cinema.

I am not commenting on PJ's treatment of canon, which I find to be a secondary issue compared to getting the tone and feel of Tolkien right.

[Elentári]

yes, I would say the complaints about set up are referring mainly to the Prologue, which delayed the start of the story proper - it was an interminable age before we met MF. Can you imagine what it's going to be like with the cut bits of the prologue added back in on the EE! Probably nearer 15 minutes before we get to "60 years earlier..."

I felt Old Bilbo/Frodo sequence was the proverbial straw, and really should have been cut dramatically. There's a lot to said for spreading out the back story, and dealing it out in small portions - the fan edit I saw does this very well by inserting it in smaller chunks within Bag End, as it is in the book, of course...

Interestingly, I have never found the FotR prologue so protracted, somehow.

[Alatar]

Its almost 14 mins, so good guess. Personally I love the reference to the Nauglamír in the prologue. It almost conflates Thingol/Thranduil without going all the way. It really worked for me. Nice nod to the fans.

[yovargas]

I also am baffled by those who feel the film was too long in its set up, particularly as FOTR's set-up, before Frodo runs off with Sam towards Bree, is technically longer.

The difference is simple - LOTR's set-up is full of cool, interesting, memorable, dramatic stuff, even for the uninitiated; AUJ is not.

And I personally doubt that many outside of already-fans found the singing particularly enjoyable. I personally find the clean-up song bit very annoying. And the other song just feels tonally out of place to me. (Well, most of the movie feels tonally out of place to me since the movie's tone veers around sound wildly and poorly...)