Conversations between Gandalf-Bilbo/ Bilbo-Thorin

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Passdagas the Brown
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Conversations between Gandalf-Bilbo/ Bilbo-Thorin

Post by Passdagas the Brown »

I have a question for everyone, which was precipitated by my 13th viewing of a film I don't like very much, the Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey. :)

Firstly. If I understand it correctly, post-Bag End, Gandalf does not have one single one-on-one conversation with Bilbo, ala the type we saw between Gandalf and Frodo in FOTR (or, indeed, between Gandalf and Thorin in AUJ), apart from the brief exchange over "Sting" (which felt more like a set up for the Gollum scene, and for FOTR, than anything particularly character-building), and the very, very brief exchange on horseback about the dwarves "taking wages" on the chances of Bilbo's arrival (which I still file under "beginning of the film" which was generally good).

Secondly. If I understand it correctly, post-Bag End, Bilbo does not have one single one-on-one conversation with Thorin Oakenshield - and only meaningfully interacts with him during the final "hug" scene.

In fact, post-Bag End, it seems that Bilbo ONLY has meaningful exchanges with Balin (a wonderful and rich moment, IMO, when he narrates Thorin's story to Fili, Kili and Bilbo), Bofur (in the Misty Mountains, as Bilbo is "going back to Rivendell"), Gollum (obviously), and a substantive, yet not-so-meaningful interaction with Fili and Kili before the troll fight.

If this is correct, then I must say that the "thinness" of the film's plot and character development, has a lot to do with the serious lack of meaningful interactions between the main characters, and especially between the main protagonist (Bilbo), and the other leads (Gandalf and Thorin).

In this context, if the 13 minutes of extra footage are devoted primarily to such interactions (and I would say the Bilbo-Elrond bit counts, as the moment at least gives Bilbo a chance to show some of his character, and describe his "place" in the company of dwarves), then a significant flaw in the films might be ameliorated.

I know that Voronwë is going to tell me to jettison such foolish expectations, but I must. hold. on. to. something. :)

In any event, what say you? Have I missed something, or is this a major issue?
Last edited by Passdagas the Brown on Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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yovargas
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Post by yovargas »

What say I? I say 13 times is a lot of self-flagellation. :P
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Post by Passdagas the Brown »

yovargas wrote:What say I? I say 13 times is a lot of self-flagellation. :P
Would this qualify as a mild form of masochism? If so, should I seek a formal diagnosis?
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Post by kzer_za »

What about the little "You don't have a home" speech?

EDIT: Okay, it's not really one-on-one, but it's still a good and meaningful character scene I think.

And good grief, I like the movie (with reservations, some of them big) and I've only watched it four times. :)
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Re: Conversations between Gandalf-Bilbo/ Bilbo-Thorin

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

13 times, PtB? Really? I've watched it all the way through maybe a total of 5 or 6, with occasional viewings of a few scenes that I really like, or that I was trying to recall a particular detail about. No way you are going to convince me that you don't really like this film a lot, deep down. No way anyone watches a film that they dislike that many times.

As for your question, while I would like more interaction between Bilbo and Gandalf and/or Thorin, any additional character development, particularly of Bilbo, would be very welcome. I think the scene we have seen itself is quite helpful, even though it does not come under the category that you describe.

With the change in reports from 20-25 additional minutes to the current 13, I am certainly hoping that Jackson realized that there was quite enough action and juvenile comedy in the film, and that virtually all of the new material will come under the category of character development, particularly of Bilbo. But I am reluctant to get my own hopes up, let alone yours. [Edited to add: but I can't help but believe that this is the case.]
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Post by kzer_za »

I don't expect a whole lot of extra action. There wasn't very much in the LotR EEs - I think Osgiliath was the only action scene in the whole trilogy that got more than a few extra shots. Definitely a lot of bad comedy in RotK's EE (and a little in TTT's), though. Who knows what we'll get this time.
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Re: Conversations between Gandalf-Bilbo/ Bilbo-Thorin

Post by Passdagas the Brown »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:13 times, PtB? Really? I've watched it all the way through maybe a total of 5 or 6, with occasional viewings of a few scenes that I really like, or that I was trying to recall a particular detail about. No way you are going to convince me that you don't really like this film a lot, deep down. No way anyone watches a film that they dislike that many times.

As for your question, while I would like more interaction between Bilbo and Gandalf and/or Thorin, any additional character development, particularly of Bilbo, would be very welcome. I think the scene we have seen itself is quite helpful, even though it does not come under the category that you describe.

With the change in reports from 20-25 additional minutes to the current 13, I am certainly hoping that Jackson realized that there was quite enough action and juvenile comedy in the film, and that virtually all of the new material will come under the category of character development, particularly of Bilbo. But I am reluctant to get my own hopes up, let alone yours. [Edited to add: but I can't help but believe that this is the case.]
It may not be 13 times, actually. But I have seen it quite a bit! Perhaps 8 or 9 times is closer to the mark.

I do enjoy a number of the early scenes, I like seeing the thrush knock, and I don't absolutely despise Azog, as many do (though I do dislike the storyline of the orc hunt). My main qualm with the film is the awful, consequenceless CGI action sequences (bunny sled and G-town), the extreme lack of character scenes, and the total, and half-baked distraction that is the Dol Guldur plotline. There's a good movie in there, if you slash 50 minutes of it, and replace it with 50 minutes of actual good material!

And no, I don't like it very much deep down. My problem is that I love Tolkien's the Hobbit, and I love film. So I cannot help but rewatch it on planes and trains, during lengthy commutes, and think about how I would do things differently. You may not know this, but in my early years, I was a film major. I cannot help but constantly think of new ways of adapting this material, and the very uninspired PJ version actually helps fuel that. Over and over again...
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answer

Post by Lusitano »

Transcribing what i wrote on torn :

My main interest in the EE is on fixing one of aujs major flaws, IE sidetracking the hobbit himself to a secondary character role after the Trolls, and some more dwarvish and elvish character development.... If these 12 minutes turn out be just about the main character, mr baggins and then we had the other stuff, i would be more satisfied and might enjoy the film a little more...

But i dont expect them to be just about Bilbo...

So, the minute count does count, for me, since i feel the film is seriously lacking in some regards and 25 minutes gave me some more hope that some flaws would be addressed and the characters would have more room and time to breathe and be better developed...


My count estimates at about 7 or 8 times, with the eighth time, just now. Obviously, it ended after the "you were born" speech, which, aided with shore's lovely music, actually gave me chills, as did the misty mountains brotherhood scene, as always.

Unlike pdb, i really dislike Azog, his voice, his lines, his Video game feel, his Vandamme scene at weathertop, his unnecessary and contrived moslesting of the company, his very presence gives me a headache. :rage:


Prologue : Bards Arrow and elven gems 1 minute
Market scene 2 minutes
Dwarves being juvenile with the elves 1 minute
Bofur singing 45 secs
Bilbo exploring, seeing narsil, and meeting elrond 3 minutes
GKings extended song 1 minute
Yaznegs expanded role 30 secs
A few action shots 40 secs

Not even thirteen minutes..but i suppose thats about it with changed lentghts...

Wasnt there some nighttime scene between thorin and gandalf before the trollshaws, at a firecamp, in one of quint's set reports?
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Re: answer

Post by Passdagas the Brown »

Lusitano wrote:Transcribing what i wrote on torn :

My main interest in the EE is on fixing one of aujs major flaws, IE sidetracking the hobbit himself to a secondary character role after the Trolls, and some more dwarvish and elvish character development.... If these 12 minutes turn out be just about the main character, mr baggins and then we had the other stuff, i would be more satisfied and might enjoy the film a little more...

But i dont expect them to be just about Bilbo...

So, the minute count does count, for me, since i feel the film is seriously lacking in some regards and 25 minutes gave me some more hope that some flaws would be addressed and the characters would have more room and time to breathe and be better developed...


My count estimates at about 7 or 8 times, with the eighth time, just now. Obviously, it ended after the "you were born" speech, which, aided with shore's lovely music, actually gave me chills, as did the misty mountains brotherhood scene, as always.

Unlike pdb, i really dislike Azog, his voice, his lines, his Video game feel, his Vandamme scene at weathertop, his unnecessary and contrived moslesting of the company, his very presence gives me a headache. :rage:


Prologue : Bards Arrow and elven gems 1 minute
Market scene 2 minutes
Dwarves being juvenile with the elves 1 minute
Bofur singing 45 secs
Bilbo exploring, seeing narsil, and meeting elrond 3 minutes
GKings extended song 1 minute
Yaznegs expanded role 30 secs
A few action shots 40 secs

Not even thirteen minutes..but i suppose thats about it with changed lentghts...

Wasnt there some nighttime scene between thorin and gandalf before the trollshaws, at a firecamp, in one of quint's set reports?
Just to clarify, I only like Azog's design (like an orc "deity" of some kind - he has a good silhouette too), and appreciate his scene at Azanulbizar. The rest of the narrative he is involved in is awful, IMO, on the same levels you describe.

There were real tensions and disasters (such as losing all their food) that occurred during the Hobbit book narrative before Rivendell, and I do not believe a dwarf chase by orcs was an improvement.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

On that, I am in agreement with you.
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Post by kzer_za »

Me too, except I'm neutral at best on his design.
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Post by Passdagas the Brown »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:On that, I am in agreement with you.
Come on now, V. I know you secretly agree with me all the time. Just go ahead, and let it out!
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Actually, I do think that our opinions on a lot of individual things are similar, it is just our overall judgments that vary so widely.

I watched the first 45 minutes of AUJ today, and I was struck again by just how good I found it. It reminded me that I had assured another friend that there was no way that the Good Morning sequence was going to be included. So glad that I was wrong about that!
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Post by Passdagas the Brown »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:Actually, I do think that our opinions on a lot of individual things are similar, it is just our overall judgments that vary so widely.

I watched the first 45 minutes of AUJ today, and I was struck again by just how good I found it. It reminded me that I had assured another friend that there was no way that the Good Morning sequence was going to be included. So glad that I was wrong about that!
Agreed on the first 45 minutes.

Like your friend, I also assumed the good morning scene would make it in. Simply too iconic to leave out, IMO.

Though why "and that means comfort" was turned into "and that means good food, a warm hearth, and all the comforts of home" I will never understand! I also lament the replacement of "the ends of worms" with just "worms." These little details are what make Tolkien's writing so special, and I feel that PBJ don't quite get that.

In any event, yeah. A solid first 45 minutes.
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Post by Elentári »

Passdagas the Brown wrote:These little details are what make Tolkien's writing so special, and I feel that PBJ don't quite get that.
Definitely...

As much as others on here like to tease me over my annoyance with the change, my pet example is the reworking of Gollum's answer to the "eggs" riddle, where Tolkien's clever "literary" joke about Gollum remembering teaching his grandmother to suck eggs was changed in the film to him remembering his grandmother teaching him! :roll:
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Passdagas the Brown wrote:Though why "and that means comfort" was turned into "and that means good food, a warm hearth, and all the comforts of home" I will never understand!
Yes, that really jumps out like sore thumb, doesn't it? Unlike some changes (including the one that Elen laments), I cannot think of any really reason why they would do that, even a reason that I disagree with. It is almost like they feel like they have to make some change in order to justify there existence, even where no change is necessary.
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Azog

Post by Lusitano »

PDBrown

Yes his gorka morkaness levels reach the height at the weathertop scene and i i am so bored with him.

Agreed on his design, like an orc spwan deity, as white as as a wight!



Agreed on the 45 minutes. For me it is those minutes that comprehend my AUJ marathons...beyond that, im either bored, annoyed or i just dont care. With a few exceptions...

You know as bilbo says .....means ...good food et al...i felt this great urge to shout at the wall of my living room and cry WHY???!

I really dislike that change of such a lovely, simple and iconic line of tolkien.

Hugh.


I cant help but wonder how lovely it would be if the film had started with that very same line....


- Scrap the frodo stuff
-Start with in a hole in a ground...
-Remove the prologue stuff to the dark business meeting, giving balin or thorin a role in narrating it....
-Cut the white orc stuff
-Cut dolguldur and radagast...or at least make it more of a flashback at rivendell where he and gandalf share a scene or perhaps at the white council...much more appropriate i think than interrupting the companys journey...
-Cut the poorly conceived and unnecessary warg chase
-Reduce the giants to half of that scene or when thorin shouts we need shelter!!! Cut right to his approaching of the cave with dwalin, makes a nice transition...
-After gandalf shouts, in GTown, runnnnnnnnnn, theres a bilbo scene and one cuts the ninja vidoe game scenes, and we cut straight to the MegaBoss arrival of the Goblin King... thus leaving only the first and principal fight with the goblins at the beginning
-Reduce the wargs and dwarves falling drama at the five fer trees to an acceptable level ...

I would scrap the entire dol guldur white council stuff but it can be manageable with it...

Just insert more bilbo scenes at rivendell ....

There.... Lusitano's Shrunken Edition of AUJ, coming to you, this fall. :D
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Post by yovargas »

I think I'd buy that version. :) (Especially if all those cuts get replaced with MOAR BILBO.)
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Post by Elentári »

Lusitano wrote:I would scrap the entire dol guldur white council stuff but it can be manageable with it...
Judging by what we got in the TE I could be persuade to agree with you on the scrapping idea!

Much as I loved the idea of including the WC business, there are fundamental problems with portraying it. Firstly, the screenwriters were hampered by what they could actually use legally, and secondly, I can see that maybe they were trying not to put too much emphasis on the One Ring, in terms of The Hobbit storyline - which is a bit rich, considering the huge focus Jackson put on the falling ring in "Riddles" scenes, tying it into similar FotR scenes. Thirdly, I feel a large problem was cause by the condensing of the timeline. We are still waiting to see when and how Gandalf obtained the key and map from Thrain, within this revised movie timeline, without realizing more was going on in Dol Guldur than he thought.

It will be interesting to see if anything is added into the EE of Saruman's dialogue on the rings of power we've seen in B-roll footage. I think that maybe if we had got the Thrain flashback in Bag End, and then the WC discussion had been more about why someone was seeking the Dwarven rings, and about the loss of the One rather than Morgul blades and Nazgûl tombs, then it could make for a much stronger scene than the rather wasted opportunity we ended up with.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I'm still withholding judgment on the WC/Dol Guldur storyline.
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