Video games, Goblintown and the falling staircases of Moria

For discussion of the upcoming films based on The Hobbit and related material, as well as previous films based on Tolkien's work
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Video games, Goblintown and the falling staircases of Moria

Post by Alatar »

[Note: I split this off from the DoS antication thread, and subsequently moved more posts from the Video diary thread - VtF]

Bah. I'm fed up of this. Everyone involved says it was PJ's decision but you know better cause you work for a company owned by WB. So we should believe your uninformed OPINION and assume everyone who has flat out stated the opposite are all LIARS. Right.

Elen. Regarding the Videogame stuff, I shall explain once more, very carefully. You say:
For some reason people get riled when the "videogame" analogy is used
This is quite simply because I know what I'm talking about. I play a LOT of video games and Goblintown is nothing like any video game I have every played, seen or even heard of. When people keep making that reference its like listening to colourblind people insisting that green is purple. I get riled because its completely and totally inaccurate. You don't like it? Fine. Just don't say its something its not.
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Post by Elentári »

Alatar wrote:Elen. Regarding the Videogame stuff, I shall explain once more, very carefully. You say:
For some reason people get riled when the "videogame" analogy is used
This is quite simply because I know what I'm talking about. I play a LOT of video games and Goblintown is nothing like any video game I have every played, seen or even heard of. When people keep making that reference its like listening to colourblind people insisting that green is purple. I get riled because its completely and totally inaccurate. You don't like it? Fine. Just don't say its something its not.
I'm sorry, I didn't know you were the ONLY person qualified to comment on what a videogame looks like!

Obviously my 16-year-old son was wrong just now when he agreed that certainly the visual aesthetic of Goblin Town is reminiscent of videogames he has played, most notably Aragorn's Quest. I would also say the rope bridges, and multi-level narrow ledge paths are reminiscent of the Goblin Mines section in the Hobbit game from the early 2000s, (even though it only feature Bilbo, and the pace of such games is slower, obviously,) but I would assume the visual look is what most people are referring to when they use the vg analogy.
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Post by sinister71 »

Alatar wrote:Bah. I'm fed up of this. Everyone involved says it was PJ's decision but you know better cause you work for a company owned by WB. So we should believe your uninformed OPINION and assume everyone who has flat out stated the opposite are all LIARS. Right.
You obviously don't know much about public relations do you? they put a spin on things to paint themselves in a positive light. The fans of this franchise are going to accept this type of thing coming from Peter Jackson as apposed to WB... If the studio announced this people would be screaming money grab. But coming from PJ? Besides who says my opinion is uninformed? I know the companies mentality after 6 years with them. I have friends who still work for them, They lie to their own employees every day what makes you think they care about lying to the movie going public. As long as you pay for a ticket they do not care that they lie to you. Then again they might not outright lying but they aren't telling the truth either. I'd be willing to bet money on it.

Look at the facts, First...WB stands to make a butt load of money with hardly any investment for a third film, little start up capitol HUGE amount of revenue. Second.... the extra material Peter Jackson gave us, none of it has any real basis in Tolkien or the appendices. Where is a ALIVE Azog in the appendices, where is Radagast a bunny sled riding buffoon in the appendices? Is there anything in the appendices that we did see on screen that was "more story to tell". Where is any of that telling the story of the Hobbit? Its not, its merely adding padded fan fiction that is unneeded and Azog wasn't even in the story until AFTER the 3 film decision. Third what does Jackson really gain from this split? Nothing what so ever. well maybe people seeing more of his made up nonsense fan fiction instead of Tolkien's material. but that's about it....

But again I know the companies mind set it hasn't changed and never will change. they want more and more money. and since they are the deciding factor in the films. I'm 99.999% sure the 3 film split was theirs and they sold Jackson on the idea. Just like he sold it to those who think its a good idea. Believe what you want. but this is a film coming from corporate America and the bottom line is the money that goes into the studios pocket not "more story to tell", the money
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Why so serious?

Post by Beutlin »

Terms such as "video-game look" or "bad fan-fiction" (my all-time favourite) have amused me for a long time. People who tend to compare the goblins-scene with videogame-levels have most of the time never played a VG in their whole life. People did not compare the scene to some obscure and totally irrelevant children-games such as “Aragorn’s Quest” or Vivendi’s “The Hobbit”. The video-game analogy is just a rather dull way to say that you thought that the scene looked like shit. And video-game aesthetics apparently fall into the same category. But what are video-game aesthetics? Did the Goblin-King remind you of some locust boss from “Gears of War”? Were you reminded of “Uncharted 2: Among Thieves” when the dwarves fell down the abyss after Gandalf killed the Goblin-king? People compare scenes to video-games because they think both look awful/are not worthy of art. Just look at other film reviews: Whenever a critic compares a film to video-games (hardly ever mentioning a specific game), you can bet that he hated the film, but has never played a video-game. After all, why should a gamer say that a bad film reminds him of a video game? I am perfectly fine with people calling the scene bad or even with flawed Michael Bay comparisons, etc.

As aforementioned, my favourite term is “fan-fiction”. I have already talked about this on TORN a couple of months ago, but why on earth do people call the screenwriters fan-fiction writers? As far as I can remember, fan-fiction must not be sold and most of these authors are losers who sit in their basement and write awful, meaningless Science Fiction or Fantasy stories. Now, you can call Jackson a flawed or bad screenwriter, you can say that the scenes which are only in the film do not fit into the main story-line, that they feature unnecessary characters or distort Middle-Earth in a way that is just not right. But the fan-fiction analogy is just part of the cheap-polemics that are used to discredit the film. Peter Jackson is a professional filmmaker who has won several prestigious awards for his screenplays. Does this prohibit the possibility that the “AUJ” screenplay was bad? Not in the slightest. Calling Jackson an amateur or fan-fiction writer on the other hand is a different matter.

On a different note: to say that the film’s main problems were the “invented” scenes might work from a fan’s perspective. The critics very much attacked the length of the film but there complaints were not only targeted at these scenes. For example, the scene in the Shire was criticized extensively by critics for its length. Most fans liked it though and there are in fact many critical fans that enjoyed the film until the company left the Shire. Azog, one of the main fan-complaints did not play such a huge role in the negative reviews by professional critics.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I would like to suggest that we all take a deep breath.

Everybody, please—stop assuming you know (a) what other people are feeling and (b) what motivates their opinions.

I have opinions, too; I have read some brilliant fan fiction, played some wonderful video games, love Tolkien's books as much as anyone here.

We all have opinions about AUJ. They are varied, and they are based on varied experiences leading up to the film—as well as varied reflections as time passes.

I would like to ask that we listen to each other with courtesy and respect, and refrain from snark about other people's seriously expressed opinions. There are also many substantive insights being expressed here. Can we respond to those and not to the other stuff?

Thanks.

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“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
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Post by Alatar »

I'll just step out of the discussion here Prim. I'm finding it hard to find the substantive insights you refer to.
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Post by halplm »

After reading a few pages of this thread, I am very grateful I never saw the movie :).
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Post by yovargas »

For whatever it's worth - which is likely very little - I've played many a video game in my day and I understand exactly what is meant by the comparison and I think it is very much correct.
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Post by Alatar »

Well, actually its worth something to me. I'd love to hear an explanation from someone who actually plays games, cause you're the first person I've ever come across who plays video games and makes that comparison. So, genuinely, explain it to me, cause I don't see it.
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Post by Elentári »

I just love the way people here are assuming I have never played a videogame myself - I hope it's nothing to do with me being female or "ancient," as my kids would say!!!

I have 4 kids, three of whom are teenage boys, so I am frequently exposed to the latest games, not to mention the years past where I actively played with them both on the PS2 and Wii platforms. It was good old mum who had to get Frodo safely out of Hobbiton in the pre-Jackson trilogy FotR game because my kids were scared stiff of the Black Riders! :scarey:
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Post by Dave_LF »

I play plenty too. For me, it's the sum of:
-Heroes severely overpowered relative to enemies. They dispatch hordes of them with ease.
-The enemies continue to throw themselves suicidally at the heroes even though they can see all their compatriots getting wiped out.
-Hyperaction. One improbable maneuver after another, and no one's even surprised that they work.
-Physics suspended for heroes (especially "falling doesn't hurt")
-"Boss fight" at the end (consciously subverted)
-CGI graphics

You've pointed out before that movies did a lot of this before there were videogames, but I think videogames own the trope at this point. There's also the fact that there are no character moments during the chase--no close-ups of a dwarf looking concerned, or asking a buddy whether he's ok--which makes the heroes seem almost as flat as the villains (for this scene).

It doesn't particularly look like a videogame, but it sure feels like one (the old 8 and 16 bit Contra games come to mind).
Last edited by Dave_LF on Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by yovargas »

Alatar wrote:Well, actually its worth something to me. I'd love to hear an explanation from someone who actually plays games, cause you're the first person I've ever come across who plays video games and makes that comparison. So, genuinely, explain it to me, cause I don't see it.
It's not the visual element, or at least not alone. It's more about the setup. It's the way that the series of obstacles is setup not as real threats to the heroes but just as the next action bit for your hero to clobber through. Jump the gap! Clobber the orc! Dodge the arrow! Pickup the power-up! Defeat the boss! None of these are real threats, they're just fun gamey challenges to get past while our immortal heroes get from point A to point B.

Lots of bad action movies get that feel but Goblin Town was amongst the most blatant I've ever seen with it's totally linear, artificial sequence of platforms and ladders and whatnot to jump and charge through. And when the Goblin King pops up at the end the screen could practically have flashed "Defeat the boss to get to the next level!" - complete with obvious boss weakpoint!!
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Post by Alatar »

Dave_LF wrote:I play plenty too. For me, it's the sum of:
-Heroes severely overpowered relative to enemies. They dispatch hordes of them with ease.
-The enemies continue to throw themselves suicidally at the heroes even though they can see all their compatriots getting wiped out.
-Hyperaction. One improbable maneuver after another, and no one's even surprised that they work.
-Physics suspended for heroes (especially "falling doesn't hurt")
-"Boss fight" at the end (consciously subverted)
-CGI graphics

You've pointed out before that movies did a lot of this before there were videogames, but I think videogames own the trope at this point. There's also the fact that there are no character moments during the chase--no close-ups of a dwarf looking concerned, or asking a buddy whether he's ok--which makes the heroes seem almost as flat as the villains (for this scene).

It doesn't particularly look like a videogame, but it sure feels like one (the old 8 and 16 bit Contra games come to mind).
Ok, but nearly all of those things are true to the book. Why is nobody complaining that its too much like the book? Instead video games get a bad rap (particularly since video games are far more impressive than this for the most part). But at least you agree it doesn't look like a video game, which is the argument I was primarily making.

Yov seems to agree, saying that its the setup, more than the visuals. But again, this is hardly unique to video games. All the old movies were like that, and many of the modern ones. I just did a quick google for "bodycount in movies" and guess what the first hit was?

Charts: Highest Body Count Movies

1. LotR: Return of the King (ex): 836
2. Kingdom of Heaven (ex): 610
3. 300: 600
4. Troy (ex): 572
5. The Last Samurai: 558

However, the thing I simply can't understand is how people who hate the improbable falls in Goblintown have no problem with the falling staircase in Moria. The physics in Goblintown at least work. They are wildly improbable, but at least there are physical reasons why that bit of wood swung on that particular vine at that exact moment. In Moria we have a gigantic stone staircase start to fall abut 10 degrees from vertical and then it changes direction! No reason, nothing to explain it. At least in Goblintown PJ played by the rules of physics.
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Post by Dave_LF »

It's the addition of character moments that makes the difference to me. In Moria, the falling staircase is at least about something--Aragorn helping the hobbits across and the hilarious dwarf jokes. In Goblintown, the characters are just props to support the development of an action scene instead of the other way around. Can anyone even remember which dwarf performed which stunt? And more importantly, does it matter?
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I for one (as I have said before), dislike the falling staircase in Moria far more than the Goblintown chase (which I have actually come to like quite a bit, the more that I see it). The CGI of the latter is far superior, the Goblins are much more interesting than the Moria Orcs, the fighting is much more entertaining (I particularly enjoy Balin, but all of the dwarfs and Gandalf all have their moments), and the humour isn't quite as bad ("that'll do it" pales in cringeworthyness compared to "no one tosses a dwarf")
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Post by Primula Baggins »

IAWA about the staircase in Moria. It would have worked for me if they had shown, say, a bit of the fulcrum suddenly splitting away so the staircase had a reason to shift its direction of fall. The improbability stood out for me because in other ways the sequence felt so real—the palpable mass of the thing, the sounds as it fell. I think they could have made the "wobble" plausible if that had been a priority at all and not just a "hey, this would be cool, let's do it" moment.

ETA: Cross-posted with Voronwë. I'm planning to watch AUJ again fairly soon and will see if my memories of the sequence carry through, but I remember being bored in Goblintown. Overloaded, maybe. It all turned into pretty colored patterns with occasional loud noises, and since I knew the heroes would survive it, it began to feel tedious fairly early on.

I wanted the film to get back to those character moments, to something I could recognize as Middle-earth, and to the story I came to the film to see. Fortunately, it did.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
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But people hardly ever compare the scene to...

Post by Beutlin »

a specific video game. They just say that it looked like a video game, ergo is of inferior quality. People do not compare a film to a video game to say that it looked great. They say it because most people think of irrelevant nonsense from the 80s such as Mario Bros when they think of video games. Again, no one writes that a great scene in a film reminded him of “Uncharted 2”, etc. Video games are perceived as an inferior art form (or not an art form at all) and therefore any comparisons to them in the film culture are used to criticize. That’s the main problem here. Have they ever played “Heavy Rain” or “Red Dead Redemption”? I am okay with people comparing the Goblin-town scene to a cut-scene in a video game. That comparison certainly makes some sense. Cut-scenes in action-adventure third-person shooter video games such as “Uncharted”, “Gears of War”, “Red Dead” or even the latest “Tomb Raider” certainly bear some resemblance to some of the editing techniques in the aforementioned scene. You could also compare Goblin-town to the terrible 2011 VG “Lord of the Rings: War in the North”. Gundabad in the game certainly bears some resemblance to Goblin-town. People did not mainly criticize the look of Goblin-town though. They disliked the action. But the actual game-play in “War in the North” hardly looks like the scenes from the film (unless you count beheadings). Action-scenes work differently in games. Just look at the whole video. There are no cuts; everything is far slower than in the film.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFcKqv_OrtU (wait for2:30)

“-Heroes severely overpowered relative to enemies. They dispatch hordes of them with ease.”

The LOTR films also feature many scenes where the heroes dispatch hordes of enemies. And the escape from Goblin-town in the book could be called highly improbable too. A meek company of fifteen, are able to escape a town of enemies after killing the town’s master? Their escape route takes the many miles through tunnels that they do not know?

-The enemies continue to throw themselves suicidally at the heroes even though they can see all their compatriots getting wiped out.

Well they are mindless goblins. That’s their job.

-Hyperaction. One improbable maneuver after another, and no one's even surprised that they w

I would say an overload of action works different in a film compared to a movie. One of the main criticisms was the fact that you got to see nearly every single dwarf performing his own move. The camera never really concentrated on one of characters. Video games do not do that. You hardly ever play more than one character.

-Physics suspended for heroes (especially "falling doesn't hurt")

That’s a common movie trope. Bruce Willis, Will Smith and other actors would have died countless movie deaths if gravity showed its true power in films. On the other hand I would argue that a lot of games are more realistic when it comes to plunging down huge cliffs at least. I have died aplenty in more than a dozen games by making a wrong step. Again, games do not all boil down to Mario and Luigi.


I do not think either that the Goblin-town scene was particularly well-done by the way. I can share many objections voiced by critics and fans alike. The main problem for me and many others was that the scene did not evoke any danger. You never got the feeling that the dwarves could get hurt (also the main problem of the stone-giants scene). That’s why a lot of people compare it to the “Indiana Jones” franchise, where a lot of ridiculous stuff happens at the same time, but only the baddies seem to get hurt (for ex. the “roller-coaster ride into the abyss”). This analogy was emphasized by the giant rock used by Gandalf to create a new path-way and crushing the goblins. Therefore the scene pales in comparison to the Moria-scene in FOTR. Others disliked the Goblin-King, his singing or his death at the hands of Gandalf. But the fact that Goblin-town was over the top and did not evoke any danger does not turn it into a video-game. In fact, good video games evoke danger all the time. Staying alive while proceeding from point A to B is your main goal in most games. They work, because you might get killed any minute.

“It's not the visual element, or at least not alone. It's more about the setup. It's the way that the series of obstacles is setup not as real threats to the heroes but just as the next action bit for your hero to clobber through. Jump the gap! Clobber the orc! Dodge the arrow! Pickup the power-up! Defeat the boss! None of these are real threats, they're just fun gamey challenges to get past while our immortal heroes get from point A to point B.”

I would argue that Moria features such scenes too. The whole jump-over-the-bridge-scene, Legolas taking out orcs that are hundreds of yards away, a cave-troll [boss-fight!], the balrog [main-boss fight!], narrow paths, countless enemies, unbelievable physics (that troll would have killed Frodo), etc. Why didn’t people compare this scene to video-games? Is it because all of these scenes were longer? Again, video-games take a long time. They do not feature any hectic cutting.
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Post by yovargas »

Whether or not one likes the staircase, there was nothing video gamey about it. Off-hand, the only thing I can think of that might've had that gamey feel in LOTR a couple of Leggy's stunts, particularly with the Oliphaunt. The main difference there was that Leggy looks cool and the dwarves don't. :P


Al, it's definitely not just a "body count" or a "relentless action" thing. Frankly, I think it's good action directing vs bad action directing. An excellent, classic example of a sequence that could have felt like some "gamey" sequence but instead feels tense and wondrous is the classic Indiana Jones rolling-boulder escape sequence. I'd actually watched Speilberg's animated Tintin just a bit before watching AUJ and couldn't help but think that Speilberg's action directing was vastly superior to PJ's.

Beutlin wrote:Why didn’t people compare this scene to video-games? Is it because all of these scenes were longer?
Because good directing, setup, staging and acting made it feel like a real place instead of like the next level in an artificial game or ride. IMO.
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Concerning Sierra's "Fellowship of the Ring".

Post by Beutlin »

The game came out in 2002 before the release of “The Two Towers”. Sierra owned the book-rights at the time. I am sucker for Middle-Earth games, so I have played this game too. I also remember the Shire-scenes. The developers really managed to create some haunting scenes here with the Ring-wraiths. After that everything deteriorated very quickly. The worst major Middle-Earth video game is still LOTR: Conquest though. What a waste of time. Curiously, there haven’t been any major releases for the HOBBIT yet, nor have there been any announcement for this fall. I am hoping for a mindless action-adventure game such as “The Two Towers” or “Return of the King”. Yes, they were utterly forgettable, but great fun. “Two Towers” was my first game for PS2 and my brother and I spent Christmas day by beheading orcs. Makes perfect sense after all!

The best Peter Jackson game was King Kong though, so who knows maybe Warnes Bros is up for a surprise.

And, again, I would have to disagree with your [yovargas'] analysis that the "staircase-scene" cannot be compared to a video-game. The dwarves' remain passive in the "roller-coaster-into-the-abyss-scene". They do nothing, whereas the fellowship has to actively jump over the gap to survive. The “Uncharted” series features many scenes just like that. In a video-game, the player must act to survive; otherwise it’s just a cut-scene. All of the cuts in Goblin-town are very short, the stunts performed by the dwarves and Gandalf only takes seconds. A video-game would stretch these scenes.
Last edited by Beutlin on Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by kzer_za »

The Moria staircase works for me. It has a few good character moments (Boromir carrying Merry and Pippin is a nice touch) and tension with the approaching Balrog. I can put up with "Nobody tosses a dwarf" because it's really the only stupid Gimli joke in the first movie, and it does highlight his dwarven pride and independence even if it's in a silly way.

I think the biggest difference is that there's a real sense of danger. It comes between an intense cave troll fight and Gandalf's face-off with the Balrog, and the Balrog is closing in on them as the try to cross the staircase (in fact, he indirectly breaks the stair case IIRC). Even if the physics don't work, the stakes feel high and it fits the pacing of the movie.

I kind of enjoy the Goblintown escape, but mostly just in a "guilty pleasure action movie" kind of way.
Last edited by kzer_za on Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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