Book Éowyn and Movie Éowyn (and related issues)

[anthriel]

The stew scene is only in the EE; it wasn't in the theatrical version.

True. Although it was filmed, and I did see it, darn it. That scene left me wishing fervently that I had never purchased the EE. Gak. Terrible.

A better representation of Éowyn was the scene where she crosses swords with Aragorn. That is very much 'the fair and quietly desperate Éowyn, the Éowyn whose bower felt to her as a cage of a wild thing, the woman whose deeds set her among the queens of great renown.'

It was a very good scene, and a welcome nod toward the Éowyn she should have been. She was strong in that sequence, and her quote about those without swords still dying upon them was wonderful. PJ threw us a bone.

It's just that Miranda's Éowyn made me love Book Éowyn even more.

Well, that makes me think... perhaps the problem is that I couldn't have loved book Éowyn more. Anything other than that was never going to make me happy. I think I might be a purist, or at least an episodic purist, for these movies. PJ's Éowyn could have been So. Much. Better.

In the same way that Sean's Boromir made me love Book Boromir more.

See, good example!! I never much cared for book Boromir, but movie Boromir really was quite good. This is a spot where I am a revisionist, apparently. So I'm not consistant. So sue me.

You and I always have such opposite views, Di!

We do? Always? I'm puzzled by this, as the only time I've ever seen you disagree with me was when I recently expressed my keen enthusiasm for 'hot' Dwarves. I like Armitage's casting and I love his brooding intensity as Thorin.

I actually had posted about the "two types of dwarves", and you disagreed with me. Emphatically. You also dislike Liv, and I have never had an issue with her. I dislike (am disappointed in, rather) movie Éowyn, and you love her. I think there have been one or two other smallish things, but it hardly matters... it just seems we consistantly have different viewpoints.

But I do like Armitage's casting (other than the fact he looks like a rather short, really H0tt! MAN, not a dwarf), and I can put up with the smoldering. I hope his character gets to be Thorin, at the end of the day, though, and not just fodder for the sighing fangirls out there.

I also saw that Éowyn in the tense scene with Gríma. Gríma is given Gandalf's words - "oh, but you are alone ... in the bitter watches of the night, when all your life seems to be shrinking," etc., - and he uses them to taunt her. It's very effective.

Ah, see, we agree here! I actually just posted about this being one of my favorite scenes in the movie for Éowyn... I'll see if I can find it (it's in this thread somewhere) and paste it in. I agree!!

Found it! ETA:

My favorite Éowyn moment in the movie was the one with Wormtongue, when he was winding his words around her, preying on her loneliness and grief. Brad was amazing in that sequence, but Miranda was as well... her facial expressions as she starts to become hypnotized to his voice, and then her flare of strength as she sees him as he truly is... shivers. Oh yeah.

Anthy, I will have your posts about Éowyn clearly in mind at my next reading of LotR, and I know they will help me love the book even more.

(There's a good chance I'll have a fairly long time when I can read and not do much else this spring, and I can't think of anything better to do with the time.)

Perhaps I will re-read them with you. We did finally unearth my old middle-school era copy of the Hobbit (packing up and moving just is so unsettling...) and I have started re-reading that book.



It's quite good, really.

I do love Tolkien.


Sorry about all the edits, guys. I am having formatting issues, here...

[axordil]

It's just that Miranda's Éowyn made me love Book Éowyn even more. In the same way that Sean's Boromir made me love Book Boromir more.

That's an excellent analogy, and not coincidentally, one I happen to agree with. The interpretations deepened what were otherwise one-note characters. They tried to do that with Faramir, with less even success.

[axordil]

I rather liked the stew scene with Éowyn. Her *personal* tragedy (as opposed to the larger cultural issue, which JRRT sidesteps) was that there was a warm, caring person under the brittle exterior she put up in self-defense against her surroundings as Théoden declined and Wormtongue wheedled.

Aragorn gave her, for the first time in years, an opportunity to express those boarded-up aspects of herself, howsoever haltingly, and when he left for the POTD--and brushed her off--she decided she preferred death in battle to the alternative.

I would call that interpretation of that scene...charitable.

I can be a charitable man when I choose.

[anthriel]

My dear ax, in Professor Tolkien's writings, Éowyn was NOT a one-note character. You had SO better be talking about Boromir, here.

[axordil]

Look, flying saucers!

[anthriel]

Better be beaming you up, pal.

[yovargas]

It was a very good scene, and a welcome nod toward the Éowyn she should have been. She was strong in that sequence, and her quote about those without swords still dying upon them was wonderful. PJ threw us a bone.

Then I'm curious, asides from the stew scene, which all reasonable people agree was bad (:P), what didn't you like about Movie Éowyn?

[axordil]

No True Scotsman can find fault with the role.

[anthriel]

It was a very good scene, and a welcome nod toward the Éowyn she should have been. She was strong in that sequence, and her quote about those without swords still dying upon them was wonderful. PJ threw us a bone.

Then I'm curious, asides from the stew scene, which all reasonable people agree was bad (:P), what didn't you like about Movie Éowyn?

She was very emotional and wore her heart on her sleeve, overall, and while I sympathize with that character, she just didn't line up with the cold, tall beauty of Tolkien's Éowyn. Movie Éowyn was just such a shadow of book Éowyn.

Book Éowyn was so much more subtle with her vulnerability. We got glimpses of it, which really only emphasized how desperate and sad she was, stuck in a hopeless situation. She was so constrained by her circumstance, "born with spirit and courage into the body of a maid", and was allowed to offer nothing that would earn her at least honor in what must have looked like the final hours of her people.

She finally desperately and defiantly threw on men's clothes, drew a sword, and fought for what she loved. In doing that, she saved Middle Earth from the Witch King, and earned herself a place amongst the renowned queens of old.

The stew scene was just insulting. But the rest of it could have been so much BETTER.

[Pearly Di]

Well, that makes me think... perhaps the problem is that I couldn't have loved book Éowyn more. Anything other than that was never going to make me happy. I think I might be a purist, or at least an episodic purist, for these movies. PJ's Éowyn could have been So. Much. Better.

I understand this, because I feel similarly about Film Frodo's characterisation. Not Elijah's casting (although he was a little young, really). He conveyed Frodo's more elvish, ethereal qualities. But, oh, how I miss Frodo's inner steeliness. The number of times PJ had him fall over ...

How can PJ get Bilbo so right, but not fully get Frodo? I loves ya, PJ, but ...

This is a spot where I am a revisionist, apparently. So I'm not consistant. So sue me.

Are any of us 100% consistent, about these films? I know I'm not.

I actually had posted about the "two types of dwarves", and you disagreed with me. Emphatically.

I recall responding in a jokey fashion.

You also dislike Liv, and I have never had an issue with her.

Ah now, I wouldn't say I disliked Liv! That seems too strong a term. In fact, I have been defending her Arwen for many years, just because the fandom reaction was often so negative! However, I had to eventually face the truth that I was underwhelmed by her. Sad, but there it is. It's a shame, because I appreciate that she worked hard on her role, and I do generally think PJ has a great eye for casting.

But it's OK. You champion Movie Arwen and I'll champion Movie Éowyn!

My favorite Éowyn moment in the movie was the one with Wormtongue, when he was winding his words around her, preying on her loneliness and grief. Brad was amazing in that sequence, but Miranda was as well... her facial expressions as she starts to become hypnotized to his voice, and then her flare of strength as she sees him as he truly is... shivers. Oh yeah.

Yes, I remember this recent post! Totally agree.

[anthriel]

Well, that makes me think... perhaps the problem is that I couldn't have loved book Éowyn more. Anything other than that was never going to make me happy. I think I might be a purist, or at least an episodic purist, for these movies. PJ's Éowyn could have been So. Much. Better.

I understand this, because I feel similarly about Film Frodo's characterisation. Not Elijah's casting (although he was a little young, really). He conveyed Frodo's more elvish, ethereal qualities. But, oh, how I miss Frodo's inner steeliness. The number of times PJ had him fall over ...

How can PJ get Bilbo so right, but not fully get Frodo? I loves ya, PJ, but ...

PERFECT example, because I had no issues whatsoever with Elijah's Frodo. It kind of surprised me that anyone did, actually. But what you write here is helpful; I see it better now. Thank you!

I actually had posted about the "two types of dwarves", and you disagreed with me. Emphatically.

I recall responding in a jokey fashion.

Yes, you jokingly but clearly disagreed. We just have different viewpoints on this, and that is fine, of course! At least you haven't posted how you like the stew scene. Or that Éowyn is a one-note character. Anyone who would post something like THAT has prolly been visited by aliens, or something.

Oh, wait....

You also dislike Liv, and I have never had an issue with her.

Ah now, I wouldn't say I disliked Liv! That seems too strong a term. In fact, I have been defending her Arwen for many years, just because the fandom reaction was often so negative! However, I had to eventually face the truth that I was underwhelmed by her. Sad, but there it is. It's a shame, because I appreciate that she worked hard on her role, and I do generally think PJ has a great eye for casting.

I understand! I never saw an issue with Liv at all, and was much surprised at the response to her. She seemed like a fine Arwen to me. But then again, I didn't expect much from Arwen. Perhaps this is a key point.

[Pearly Di]

PERFECT example, because I had no issues whatsoever with Elijah's Frodo. It kind of surprised me that anyone did, actually. But what you write here is helpful; I see it better now. Thank you!

Frodo-fans had no problem with Film Frodo as a beautiful youth. But a few things got lost in translation, re: his character. Sigh.

I understand! I never saw an issue with Liv at all, and was much surprised at the response to her. She seemed like a fine Arwen to me. But then again, I didn't expect much from Arwen. Perhaps this is a key point.

I think poor Liv copped the angst from fans who were genuinely worried about all that XenArwen stuff. I know I didn't want Arwen at Helm's Deep. Gak.

Then I actually saw FotR and wasn't very bothered by the expansion of Arwen's role. I didn't like her blubbing over Frodo at Bruinen, it always seemed so over-the-top to me. I know he's cute and all but you only met him a few hours ago, Arwen!

I also mourn the loss of yet another example of Frodo's heroism ... he's the hobbit who bravely faces down the Nine at the Ford. Instead, I got Frodo as a wheezing damsel in distress in Arwen's arms.

In the book, he's the only hobbit to try to use his sword against the Nazgûl at Weathertop. In the film, he drops his sword at Weathertop.

Ah, well. You get the idea.

[SirDennis]

It's a shame, because I appreciate that she worked hard on her role, and I do generally think PJ has a great eye for casting.

I agree that generally PJ has a great eye for casting. I think this is true of Otto/Éowyn in spite of how she was written, perhaps. But when it comes to Liv/Arwen, whose presence and themes I enjoyed throughout the films, it showed one of PJ's other tendencies.

At the time she was cast, Liv was atop every cyber geek's list of most beautiful women on the planet... nerds loved her before ever hearing about LOTR being made. I can't help but think that it was more a matter of good timing, than PJ's eye. Incidentally, at the time Townsend was the flavour of the month on the other side of the equation -- not always a good basis for casting.

Again though, in Liv's case it worked out quite well I thought.

Now back to she who cannot cook. Here's another layer to consider: though both were in the field, and both were of royal lines, as far as we know, Aragorn was good at cooking from scratch. For that matter Sam, a gardener by trade, was also a good cook. Éowyn's lack of cooking skills (if one bad dish can be generalized in such a way) should then be considered legendary. (You thought I was going somewhere else?)

[anthriel]

Actually, yes, I did. I had my favorite spatula all ready to smack you.

Liv was certainly physically beautiful enough to be an elf, although there were those who felt she was a bit heavy for the role. That kind of nonsense makes my. Spatula hand twitchy, btw. Good Lord.

But back to Éowyn (;)), I never thought Miranda physically fit the role. She is so petite, and I always pictured Éowyn being tall and strong.

[Primula Baggins]

Liv was certainly physically beautiful enough to be an elf, although there were those who felt she was a bit heavy for the role.

They what? Spatulas. heck—pitchforks and torches are more the thing. I don't remember hearing that at the time, though I certainly believe it; to a certain set of people, any woman who isn't bizarrely emaciated is fat.

[Pearly Di]

Miranda doesn't strike me so much as petite (she's not short) as very womanly. .

Perhaps a tad more womanly than Éowyn is supposed to look - being a tall, slender ice-queen - but ... what can I say, I honestly loved this womanly Éowyn on screen, who was both strong and vulnerable.

[SirDennis]

Actually, yes, I did. I had my favorite spatula all ready to smack you.

On what planet was Liv too heavy for the role. Some people.

It is hard for me to exorcise the image of Otto as Éowyn... more so than Gandalf for instance, who could have been played by Christopher Plummer.

But I could see others having fit the bill. I loved Milla Jovovich as Jean d'Arc in The Messenger (1999), a character who is a type of Éowyn (or is it the other way round?)

[Pearly Di]

It is hard for me to exorcise the image of Otto as Éowyn... more so than Gandalf for instance, who could have been played by Christopher Plummer.

Plummer was in the running for the role? Really? That would have been interesting. Better than Sean Connery. But I cannot imagine anyone else as Gandalf now. Sir Ian is a wonderful Gandalf. (I also love the late, great Sir Michael Hordern's Gandalf from the BBC 1981 radio dramatisation. He and Sir Ian make a great team. Sir Michael's Gandalf is so wise, kind and commanding.)

When you say you find it hard to 'exorcise' the image of Miranda's Éowyn, I've never had any difficulty in separating the actors from the book characters. You'd think it would be a problem for me as I'm a very visual person. But whenever I reread the book, my personal vision of each character remains completely intact, despite having immersed myself so much in PJ's vision. It's quite wonderful. I get the best of both worlds!

I do, however, sometimes hear the actors' voices. I often hear McKellan's voice as I read Gandalf's words, for example. That, too, is rather wonderful.

But I could see others having fit the bill. I loved Milla Jovovich as Jean d'Arc in The Messenger (1999), a character who is a type of Éowyn (or is it the other way round?)

Hmm. Milla is far more petite than Miranda, surely. She's not quite to my personal taste as a possible Éowyn, no disrespect to her intended. (I confess I never saw her Joan of Arc film.)

I remember the casting rumours from 1999, when Uma Thurman was being mooted as Éowyn. No. Just no. Just because someone is tall and blonde doesn't automatically mean they would make a good Éowyn! (With hubby Ethan Hawke as Faramir! No disrespect to Ethan, but he is not my vision of Faramir!)

No, it was far better that PJ cast relative unknowns in the LotR cast. Worked much better.

[anthriel]

While Uma Thurman is more of the physical type that I had thought Éowyn to be, it is difficult for me to imagine Uma putting up with one minute of Wormtongue's slimy ways.

I think Uma'd have him on the floor beggin' for momma, the first time he looked at her sideways.

Perhaps Miranda was a better choice.

[WampusCat]

OK, I'm going to get myself into big trouble here.

I confess that I loved the stew scene. I loved it for one reason: Since childhood, I've totally identified with Éowyn, and I can't cook. So there.

But also, the scene struck me as congruent with steely, strong Éowyn. Here she is, with unexpected, probably unwanted feelings of tenderness and longing. The skilled swordswoman can't fight her way through this. What should she do? How should she act? What would someone more at home with a weapon know of being the kind of woman who attracts a man so unlike Wormtongue?

And yet, here is this man, this dream of freedom, this "hope of glory and great deeds." If she can't live this dream, she must at least cleave to it. How can she claim him?

So she resorts to what she's always been told are a woman's proper weapons: charm and good food. But they are not her strengths, and the failed attempt makes me pity her frustration.

In other words, I thought the scene added appropriately to her character as I already knew and loved it from the book.

Throw tomatoes at will.