Book Éowyn and Movie Éowyn (and related issues)

[Frelga]

I see what you are saying, Kitty, but I am forever plagued with the question of what, exactly, was in that stew? I mean, how on earth do you ruin it so badly that a hungry Ranger would struggle to keep it down?

Leaving alone the question of why a woman of the royal house was cooking in the first place.

And more seriously, it seems to me that the book Éowyn would never try to attract a man, especially a man like Aragorn, by trying to look like wife material. As Faramir astutely notes later, she had a hero-worship crush on Aragorn, and tried to appeal to him more in a soldierly way. If anything, she ought to be cleaning his sword.

I rather liked the stew scene with Éowyn. Her *personal* tragedy (as opposed to the larger cultural issue, which JRRT sidesteps) was that there was a warm, caring person under the brittle exterior she put up in self-defense against her surroundings as Théoden declined and Wormtongue wheedled.

I emphatically disagree. He personal problem was that being a woman forced her to play a nurturing role toward her uncle when she really wanted to whack things with a sword. Which she was superbly qualified to do, as it turned out.

It took Faramir to convince her that there are other ways to be a worthy person.

[SirDennis]

Leaving alone the question of why a woman of the royal house was cooking in the first place.

But this is a central question! From my perspective the answer is related to something WampusCat said:

So she resorts to what she's always been told are a woman's proper weapons: charm and good food. But they are not her strengths, and the failed attempt makes me pity her frustration.

I do not think Éowyn resorted to anything. She was expected to minister and be a help to the (male) warriors but also to the refugees. This grows from the idea that great leaders are also great servants. The manner in which she served was defined by her apparent gender (and iirc Théoden's command). Hence Gandalf's lament (from the book): "'My friend,' said Gandalf, 'you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on."

In any event, the princess as nurse (or an agent of respite) in times of common calamity is a familiar, noble character... though perhaps not so much these days.

[axordil]

I see what you are saying, Kitty, but I am forever plagued with the question of what, exactly, was in that stew? I mean, how on earth do you ruin it so badly that a hungry Ranger would struggle to keep it down?

Leaving alone the question of why a woman of the royal house was cooking in the first place.

And more seriously, it seems to me that the book Éowyn would never try to attract a man, especially a man like Aragorn, by trying to look like wife material. As Faramir astutely notes later, she had a hero-worship crush on Aragorn, and tried to appeal to him more in a soldierly way. If anything, she ought to be cleaning his sword.

I rather liked the stew scene with Éowyn. Her *personal* tragedy (as opposed to the larger cultural issue, which JRRT sidesteps) was that there was a warm, caring person under the brittle exterior she put up in self-defense against her surroundings as Théoden declined and Wormtongue wheedled.

I emphatically disagree. He personal problem was that being a woman forced her to play a nurturing role toward her uncle when she really wanted to whack things with a sword. Which she was superbly qualified to do, as it turned out.

It took Faramir to convince her that there are other ways to be a worthy person.

Whereas I think she had little problem with caring for her uncle; what she had a problem with was being *limited* to that, and being unable to do anything about it. She had no choice, and no power to change things so she *did* have a choice.

Any reading of the character that sees her as *inherently* cold is flawed. She isn't a psychopath.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I agree with Ax. My problem with the stew scene is in the execution, not in the conception. As is his want, Jackson plays it for laughs in a way that is totally inappropriate and over the top. Otherwise, I would be fine with it, for the reasons that Ax and Wampus have stated.

[Dave_LF]

Leaving alone the question of why a woman of the royal house was cooking in the first place.

I figure she was just slumming a bit, given that she's on an extended camping trip with the commoners and all. And she's not very good at it, due to lack of previous experience.

[yovargas]

Really if it just hadn't been literally inedible, which is just too much to believe and not really all that funny even if it were, the scene would've been okay.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Exactly, yov. It is a perfect example of Jackson's inability to not take things too far.

[Frelga]

Whereas I think she had little problem with caring for her uncle; what she had a problem with was being *limited* to that, and being unable to do anything about it. She had no choice, and no power to change things so she *did* have a choice.

Isn't it saying the same thing I did? She loved her uncle yand did her duty to him. That she resented being stuck in the nurturing role doesn't make her "cold" anymore than Éomer is cold for taking on military duty, which Éowyn clearly would also prefer, over dry-nursing his uncle.

Or, to spell it out, just because she is female doesn't make her magically suited to a "nurturing" role, and it certainly doesn't make her psychopathic to resent it. Tolkien doesn't get nearly enough credit for character development, IMO, but he got that one spot on.

[axordil]

I don't think she honestly preferred martial activities to nurturing at all. I think she *thought* she did because she was constrained into doing only one. I also think she was extremely competent at both.

[Frelga]

Well, that's certainly a point of view. Any chance of a citation to support it?

[kzer_za]

Well, she does choose to become a healer in the end. But only when no one is pressuring her to do it.

[axordil]

Well, she does choose to become a healer in the end. But only when no one is pressuring her to do it.

Pretty much this. A constrained choice is not a choice. While she's got the family gene for swordplay, and the courage of the House of Eorl, were there no constraints on her actions, I suspect she would have tended toward nurturing rather than killing. But it's always nice to have a fallback.

[Frelga]

Well, she does choose to become a healer in the end. But only when no one is pressuring her to do it.

Well, she intends to become a healer. We never actually learn how well that went.

More importantly, she had just gone through a series of life changing events, culminating in what amounts to counseling from Faramir. This seems much more like personal growth, with the character's values coming more in line with the author's. I don't get the "well, this is what I always wanted to do, but now that I don't have to do it, I can stop complaining about it" vibe from it. That would just be immature.

Ax, do you imply that, given a free choice, book-Éowyn would have chosen taking care of her uncle over riding with Éomer? Because I don't see that in the book at all.

[WampusCat]

I think Éowyn would have jumped at the chance to ride with Éomer. She cared for Théoden out of duty and love, not because it best suited her.

[axordil]

I'm going to leave the discussion now. Again.

[kzer_za]

More importantly, she had just gone through a series of life changing events, culminating in what amounts to counseling from Faramir. This seems much more like personal growth, with the character's values coming more in line with the author's. I don't get the "well, this is what I always wanted to do, but now that I don't have to do it, I can stop complaining about it" vibe from it. That would just be immature.

Yeah, I agree with this. I meant that with what she had experienced and with people not pressuring her to do certain things, she decided that being a healer was what she wanted and freely chose it. Not that she secretly wanted to be a healer all along.

[Alatar]

Has anyone ever wondered if we put more thought into Tolkien's characters than he ever did?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Often. But I don't really think it is a bad thing.

[axordil]

Has anyone ever wondered if we put more thought into Tolkien's characters than he ever did?

The relationship of a reader to a character is very, very different from that of a writer creating that character.

I do bad things to characters I like as I write, including things that, were I reading a book where it happened, I'd likely put the book down and walk away in disgust...if the writer succeeded in making me emotionally invested in that character.

An author has to put a character through it to see what they're made of. There's a lot of "if this happens, what would she do?" and "if so and so does that, would he react immediately or internalize it?" that goes on while writing. To do that well, one must know the character, either on a conscious or unconscious level...and one gets to know someone by seeing how they react to things. So it's an iterative process. Test them, see what result works best for the story at hand, test them again, etc.

So I'd say: no, we aren't putting more thought in; we're putting a different kind of thought in.

[yovargas]

Has anyone ever wondered if we put more thought into Tolkien's characters than he ever did?

In some cases, yes, but I'd be surprised if this current discussion isn't one that Tolkien would've thought about. It's a pretty basic question about who Éowyn really is as a character. You don't write good, meaningful characters if you don't know who they are.