Hall of Fire Reviews - Post Them Here! [SPOILERS!]

[kzer_za]

Well, the narrator gives a vague reference to the Naugrim incident as the reason for dwarf-elf enmity. On screen, you can't really show this. I don't mind them making up a different reason. And what we see with Thranduil is plausible enough with the information we have from the book.

Also, the Arkenstone is so important to the plot that I think it's a good idea to show it early on screen.

I agree that overstuffing the movie with tangential plot points was a bad idea (mainly our favorite albino villain), but I don't think introducing important elements from the book early on falls in that category.

[Elentári]

Ax - Okay, "through Bilbo's eyes" was the wrong wording, but you picked up that what I meant was "from Bilbo's perspective," (via the narrator) anyway...likewise, Yov's comment about the movie working better when Bilbo is the focus ties in with that concept.


kzer za - Whilst I am in complete agreement that the reason for the ancient enmity between the Naugrim and Sindar is off the table in terms of adaptability and legality, I really do not consider Jackson's alternative "plausible" at all. The idea of Thranduil turning up with an Elf army so quickly, and then turning away without even helping the fleeing refugees at least, just doesn't make sense.

[kzer_za]

Well, the way they show it takes some licenses and is typical fudgy LotR movie geography. I mean that the basic idea behind it makes sense to me - the dwarves might have been hoping for Thranduil to help them and not gotten it.

Also, I got Naugrim and Nauglamír mixed up!

[yovargas]

The idea of Thranduil turning up with an Elf army so quickly, and then turning away without even helping the fleeing refugees at least, just doesn't make sense.

I actually laughed the first time I so this cuz it struck me as so silly. "Oh don't my us, me and my army were just strolling through fully armored and equipped; now that we've looked down at your plight with profound condescension, we'll be heading off..."

[axordil]

The idea of Thranduil turning up with an Elf army so quickly, and then turning away without even helping the fleeing refugees at least, just doesn't make sense.

It's probably no more than three days forced march from Thranduil's caves to Erebor, and the dragon would take some time ferreting out all the dwarves.

The vibe I got from the prologue was that Thranduil was, perhaps, not that unhappy about the fall of Erebor, and had the army along on the off chance that Smaug came back out looking for more trouble. Which elevates him a notch in the "elvish jerk" department...but probably only a notch.

[Alatar]

My impression was that they arrived too late to help, and turned around when they realised the battle was already lost. In fact I took it as a sort of "anti-Théoden" moment. Remember this bit:

But the king sat upon Snowmane, motionless, gazing upon the agony of Minas Tirith, as if stricken suddenly by anguish, or by dread. He seemed to shrink down, cowed by age. Merry himself felt as if a great weight of horror and doubt had settled on him. His heart beat slowly. Time seemed poised in uncertainty. They were too late! Too late was worse than never! Perhaps Théoden would quail, bow his old head, turn, slink away to hide in the hills.

But maybe that's a stretch. All I can say is that's what I thought of when I saw it.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The idea of Thranduil turning up with an Elf army so quickly, and then turning away without even helping the fleeing refugees at least, just doesn't make sense.

I actually laughed the first time I so this cuz it struck me as so silly. "Oh don't my us, me and my army were just strolling through fully armored and equipped; now that we've looked down at your plight with profound condescension, we'll be heading off..."

Definitely one of the weakest moments of the film, in my view.

See, we do agree on something!

[Dave_LF]

I interpreted it the same way Al did. "We heard there was trouble and came running to help, but once we saw it was a dragon, we decided it was better not to get involved." Yeah, it makes no sense that they could both receive the (apparently vague) news and get all the way from Mirkwood to Erebor inside the timeframe involved, but there are weird ripples in the spacetime continuum of Jackson's Middle Earth.

[yovargas]

I interpreted it the same way Al did. "We heard there was trouble and came running to help, but once we saw it was a dragon, we decided it was better not to get involved."

Huh. So you interpreted it as cowardice?

[Alatar]

Avoiding mass suicide is hardly cowardice.

[kzer_za]

So I finished watching the movie yesterday - my fourth viewing and first home viewing. Some things I liked more than before, some less. Because I already knew the movie fairly well, I was able to evaluate it better just as a film and not as Tolkien.

The middle of this movie really doesn't work. You have Azog (including the Warg chase) and the White Council and the Necromancer and Radagast all jumbled together. Not all of these things are bad on their own, but when they're put together the movie really loses its focus and has no clear sense of direction. Not only does Freeman not get enough screentime, but for awhile the dwarves reclaiming their homeland becomes a footnote in the plot.

The movie mostly regains its footing in the last act. The Bilbo/Bofur conversation in the Misty Mountains felt like a turning point that refocused the movie on the important things. Riddles in the Dark is excellent of course, and I disagree with those who say the lighting is a problem - maybe they could have gone a lot darker, but what we have works too. Even with Azog, the last act does a pretty good job keeping things centered on Bilbo and the dwarves' quest.

I'm still not a huge fan of the Goblintown escape - I don't really dislike it, but it doesn't do much for me either. Out of the Frying Pan is easily the best action scene in the movie, at least the best non-flashback one.

Basically, the first act is near-perfect, the second has a few good parts but is basically a mess, and the third is pretty good with a couple of fantastic scenes.

One thing I noticed more this time around was the little character nuances for some of the dwarves. I like Dwalin's reaction to the "long-term deposit", for example.

[yovargas]

Basically, the first act is near-perfect, the second has a few good parts but is basically a mess, and the third is good with a couple of fantastic scenes.

Though it sounds like you enjoy the better parts more than I did, that is my assessment as well: quite good at the start, quite bad in the middle, then jumps around in between for the finale.

I was surprised to find that I didn't mind Azog much the first time around but the second time that whole thing came off like a very bad idea.

[sinister71]

So I finished watching the movie yesterday - my fourth viewing and first home viewing. Some things I liked more than before, some less. Because I already knew the movie fairly well, I was able to evaluate it better just as a film and not as Tolkien.

The middle of this movie really doesn't work. You have Azog (including the Warg chase) and the White Council and the Necromancer and Radagast all jumbled together. Not all of these things are bad on their own, but when they're put together the movie really loses its focus and has no clear sense of direction. Not only does Freeman not get enough screentime, but for awhile the dwarves reclaiming their homeland becomes a footnote in the plot.

The movie mostly regains its footing in the last act. The Bilbo/Bofur conversation in the Misty Mountains felt like a turning point that refocused the movie on the important things. Riddles in the Dark is excellent of course, and I disagree with those who say the lighting is a problem - maybe they could have gone a lot darker, but what we have works too. Even with Azog, the last act does a pretty good job keeping things centered on Bilbo and the dwarves' quest.

I'm still not a huge fan of the Goblintown escape - I don't really dislike it, but it doesn't do much for me either. Out of the Frying Pan is easily the best action scene in the movie, at least the best non-flashback one.

Basically, the first act is near-perfect, the second has a few good parts but is basically a mess, and the third is pretty good with a couple of fantastic scenes.

One thing I noticed more this time around was the little character nuances for some of the dwarves. I like Dwalin's reaction to the "long-term deposit", for example.

Thats what I thought the first act, the part where it stuck closer to what Tolkien wrote, was far superior than the rest of the film. I will say I thought there were scenes that shown through but they were far and few between for me. Had the whole film went along the lines of the Good Morning sequence through Bilbo waking up in the morning, or like the riddles game part I think it would have been a much better film.