Should the Hobbit films have a less credible 'Green Sun'?

For discussion of the upcoming films based on The Hobbit and related material, as well as previous films based on Tolkien's work
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Should the Hobbit films have a less credible 'Green Sun'?

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

In a previous discussion, Shelob's Appetite perceptively wrote:
If indeed the Hobbit bursts the fourth wall of cinema, and has multiple moments of thousand-foot drops with no consequences for the characters (and major villains uttering cheesy one-liners before they die) then the entire film is spoiled. Why? Because the secondary world will fail to be believable.
Part of me agrees with this. But part of me wonders. Let me explain further.

The concept of a believable secondary world is something that Tolkien discusses at length in his classic essay 'On Fairy-stories'. In particular, he uses the analogy of a 'Green Sun,' stating "To make a Secondary World inside which the green sun will be credible, commanding Secondary Belief, will probably require labour and thought, and will certainly demand a special skill, a kind of elvish craft." This is (as I have said before) a perceptive a definition of what makes a work of fantasy successful.

In their astute Introduction to their expanded edition of Tolkien On Fairy-stories, Verlyn Flieger and Doug Anderson talk at length at how the essay came at the midpoint of Tolkien’s creative life, and describe how he applied the lessons that he learned in writing the essay to improve his craft, particularly as seen in the advances from The Hobbit to The Lord of the Rings. As they say, “All of these improvements can be subsumed under the heading of the most potent phrase in Tolkien’s essay, “the inner consistency of reality”. The Lord of the Rings has it; The Hobbit has it intermittently, but not consistently.”

So one might think that this lack of an inner consistent reality, a less credible green sun, as it were, is a failing of The Hobbit book that perhaps could be improved upon in a cinematic adaptation, particularly by someone who has already adapted the more "advanced" Lord of the Rings. However, as many of us know, Tolkien himself tried to rewrite The Hobbit to be more consistent with LOTR in 1960, only to give up the effort, reputedly because a friend whose opinion he respected said to him "This is great, but it's not The Hobbit." Moreover, there seems to be a consensus (or at least a majority opinion) among those who have read the 1960 draft in John Rateliff's The History of The Hobbit, that agrees with that opinion.

So my first question is whether in some odd way that lack of a inner consistent reality, that less credible green sun, if you will, is somehow part of what makes The Hobbit The Hobbit. And if so, should not a successful adaptation of The Hobbit managed to maintain that quirky quality? My final question cannot be answered until we have seen the film(s): it is, of course, whether the film(s) have at all succeeded in achieving that, while still maintaining an adherence to the other qualities that make the Hobbit great, its depth, its exploration of different forms of heroism, of the clash of cultures and values, and moral ambiguity, and of course its quintessentially British, whimsical humour.
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Re: Should the Hobbit films have a less credible 'Green Sun'

Post by Stranger Wings »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:In a previous discussion, Shelob's Appetite perceptively wrote:
If indeed the Hobbit bursts the fourth wall of cinema, and has multiple moments of thousand-foot drops with no consequences for the characters (and major villains uttering cheesy one-liners before they die) then the entire film is spoiled. Why? Because the secondary world will fail to be believable.
Part of me agrees with this. But part of me wonders. Let me explain further.

The concept of a believable secondary world is something that Tolkien discusses at length in his classic essay 'On Fairy-stories'. In particular, he uses the analogy of a 'Green Sun,' stating "To make a Secondary World inside which the green sun will be credible, commanding Secondary Belief, will probably require labour and thought, and will certainly demand a special skill, a kind of elvish craft." This is (as I have said before) a perceptive a definition of what makes a work of fantasy successful.

In their astute Introduction to their expanded edition of Tolkien On Fairy-stories, Verlyn Flieger and Doug Anderson talk at length at how the essay came at the midpoint of Tolkien’s creative life, and describe how he applied the lessons that he learned in writing the essay to improve his craft, particularly as seen in the advances from The Hobbit to The Lord of the Rings. As they say, “All of these improvements can be subsumed under the heading of the most potent phrase in Tolkien’s essay, “the inner consistency of reality”. The Lord of the Rings has it; The Hobbit has it intermittently, but not consistently.”

So one might think that this lack of an inner consistent reality, a less credible green sun, as it were, is a failing of The Hobbit book that perhaps could be improved upon in a cinematic adaptation, particularly by someone who has already adapted the more "advanced" Lord of the Rings. However, as many of us know, Tolkien himself tried to rewrite The Hobbit to be more consistent with LOTR in 1960, only to give up the effort, reputedly because a friend whose opinion he respected said to him "This is great, but it's not The Hobbit." Moreover, there seems to be a consensus (or at least a majority opinion) among those who have read the 1960 draft in John Rateliff's The History of The Hobbit, that agrees with that opinion.

So my first question is whether in some odd way that lack of a inner consistent reality, that less credible green sun, if you will, is somehow part of what makes The Hobbit The Hobbit. And if so, should not a successful adaptation of The Hobbit managed to maintain that quirky quality? My final question cannot be answered until we have seen the film(s): it is, of course, whether the film(s) have at all succeeded in achieving that, while still maintaining an adherence to the other qualities that make the Hobbit great, its depth, its exploration of different forms of heroism, of the clash of cultures and values, and moral ambiguity, and of course its quintessentially British, whimsical humour.
In my personal opinion, the green sun in the Hobbit book is very credible. While it is perhaps a bit incredible when compared to the green sun of LOTR - by itself, the Hobbit (at least for me) is a perfectly believable, consistent and self-contained secondary world. It stands only slightly behind LOTR and the Silmarillion, in my estimation. I know that many dislike Tolkien's authorial interjections, for example, and feel that they hurt verisimilitude, but I always felt that they made the world more acceptable - almost as if what Tolkien was saying was obviously common knowledge (I love his frequent "of courses" and "as you knows" etc, etc,).

I don't believe that PJ can improve that, unfortunately. And while I love many of the clips I have seen thus far, what I have heard of the action scenes, and the numerous 1,000 foot drops, is that the green sun of Peter Jackson's Hobbit will be far harder to swallow.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

It surprises me that Jackson has chosen to exaggerate some of the "absurdities" of the Hobbit as a story for children. I completely expected that he'd go the other direction entirely in an effort to make the Hobbit films tonally closer to the LotR films.
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Post by Alatar »

FWIW, I don't agree with you about The Hobbit, and would have loved to see the 1960's version completed. In fact, in the absence of anything other than a gut feeling, I'd be inclined to disagree with you that there is a concensus. I think you're simply projecting your own preference and assuming everyone agrees with it. That has not been my experience. Every time this is brought up, that quote is trotted out, and every time I see people disagreeing with it, and I regularly see people wishing Tolkien's friend had butted the hell out so we could have got the updated Hobbit.

Regarding the 1000ft falls, (which incidentally strike me as hyperbole as I saw nothing over a couple of hundred feet). I can't speak for anyone else, but they were more believable looking to me than the crumbling staircase in Moria, or Aragorn's cliff dive, or Denethors ridiculously long dash from Rath Dinen while on fire. In every case, the fall is following physics, either swinging from ropes, or slowing due to friction against narrowing cracks in the walls. Unlike the staircase in Moria which splinters at the bottom, leans one way and then inexplicably sways back the other direction. It screams at my brain every time I see it. I've said it before, but I'll say it again, the Goblin town sequence reminded me very much of a sequence from Indiana Jones, or even one of the infamous Bond opening sequences. It stretches credulity because of the ridiculous luck involved, not the fake physics. And I can buy into that, cause its a thrill ride. In Moria, we were playing for real and got fake physics, which jarred much more. IMHO.
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Post by Alatar »

Primula Baggins wrote:It surprises me that Jackson has chosen to exaggerate some of the "absurdities" of the Hobbit as a story for children. I completely expected that he'd go the other direction entirely in an effort to make the Hobbit films tonally closer to the LotR films.
Agreed, which is why my experience was so positive. This is so tonally like The Hobbit in feel, even if the specifics are different. I didn't expect that.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Alatar wrote:FWIW, I don't agree with you about The Hobbit, and would have loved to see the 1960's version completed.
You're actually one of the only people that I have encountered that feels that way. Other than (sometimes) myself. ;)

I'll have to wait until I see the film to say more.
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Post by Elentári »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Alatar wrote:FWIW, I don't agree with you about The Hobbit, and would have loved to see the 1960's version completed.
You're actually one of the only people that I have encountered that feels that way. Other than (sometimes) myself. ;)
Really? I too would have loved to see a finished version of The Hobbit rewritten to match the tone of LotR, so that it bridges the gap between the SIL and LotR in the same vein, but I can understand those who like the whimsical nature of TH as it stands.

Filmwise, I was hoping for something approaching the tone of LotR, with some of the whimsy kept in - I'm happy to see the additional WC and Dwarven backstory, but I just hate it when canon is ignored and/or rewritten to make a film "more cinematic." In some ways I'd rather have had a pure Hobbit in a slightly more serious tone without the added extras than Jackson's creative reimaginings...

Nevertheless, I'm still looking forward to seeing whether PJ's balancing act has worked for myself!
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Post by Pearly Di »

Elentári wrote:Really? I too would have loved to see a finished version of The Hobbit rewritten to match the tone of LotR, so that it bridges the gap between the SIL and LotR in the same vein, but I can understand those who like the whimsical nature of TH as it stands.
I can understand and appreciate both approaches to The Hobbit. :)

I also think it legitimate for an adaptation of The Hobbit to take the first approach, i.e. of making the story more of an obvious bridge between The Silmarillion and LotR.
... I just hate it when canon is ignored and/or rewritten to make a film "more cinematic."
It depends on how it's handled, IMO. I liked the non-canonical appearance of the Elves at Helm's Deep!
In some ways I'd rather have had a pure Hobbit in a slightly more serious tone without the added extras than Jackson's creative reimaginings...
Oh, that could work too. Definitely. :)
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Post by Inanna »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Alatar wrote:FWIW, I don't agree with you about The Hobbit, and would have loved to see the 1960's version completed.
You're actually one of the only people that I have encountered that feels that way. Other than (sometimes) myself. ;)
Me three.

The Hobbit does jar at me in places. I've never liked the "la-la-la" elves. And for that reason alone, I would have loved to read a Hobbit which was more consistent with LOTR when depicting Elves.

Pearly Di, I liked the Elves at Helm's Deep as well. :)
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