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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:52 pm 
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Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
I hope you can enjoy the parts that you like, but I am quite confident that you will hate some of it.


True. One saving grace that I have not mentioned before involves a story element that I think I will enjoy, and that is the process of Bilbo earning respect from the dwarves. There is something rather "Lawrence of Arabia-esque" about that narrative, with an adventurous English outsider having to prove himself to hardy war-weary folk, and I expect this to resonate with me.

Of course, Peter Jackson is no David Lean, and he may very well completely butcher this very simple yet effective narrative, but it will at least be present...


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:34 am 
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This is sort of related to fan reaction in that how reviews are written shape that reaction.

What I'm seeing, though it's early yet, is the positive reviews so far appear to be apologetic or full of qualifiers. The ones that hit key selling points, like clockwork, I am most suspicious of. I would trust a negative review by an unknown reviewer before trusting a positive review from someone well connected to the industry (or vice versa for that matter).

There is also much being made of the cast and crew before the films have even premiered. A story about Armitage being "gifted" Orcrist has already appeared, as if anyone should care. When we learned that Viggo was given his Ranger Sword, and Elijah Sting (and a Ring), it meant something. They seem to be putting the feel-good-isms before the horse as it were.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:30 am 
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SirDennis wrote:
This is sort of related to fan reaction in that how reviews are written shape that reaction.

What I'm seeing, though it's early yet, is the positive reviews so far appear to be apologetic or full of qualifiers. The ones that hit key selling points, like clockwork, I am most suspicious of. I would trust a negative review by an unknown reviewer before trusting a positive review from someone well connected to the industry (or vice versa for that matter).

There is also much being made of the cast and crew before the films have even premiered. A story about Armitage being "gifted" Orcrist has already appeared, as if anyone should care. When we learned that Viggo was given his Ranger Sword, and Elijah Sting (and a Ring), it meant something. They seem to be putting the feel-good-isms before the horse as it were.


Yes. There are absolutely no meaty, believable, very positive reviews, as there were for FOTR. People are certainly not liking this as much.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:08 am 
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Have to say, thats not what I'm seeing. I think (no offense intended) that you guys are seeing what you want to see, highlighting the bits that coincide with your preconceived notions, and dismissing the rest. Now, you may well be right, but I think if you search for negativity you'll be sure to find it.

Now I know thats equally true for the optimistic, so I'm trying to disregard to more extreme angles on both sides and what I'm getting is a pretty consistent B+ or A- vibe.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:19 am 
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Shelob'sAppetite wrote:
Yes. There are absolutely no meaty, believable, very positive reviews, as there were for FOTR. People are certainly not liking this as much.


It has to be borne in mind that critics might well be in a mood to affect slight boredom with the 'PJ in Middle-earth' thing. 'Been there, done that, got the T-shirt with LotR' ... that kind of thing.

I am slightly concerned about the Trilogy aspect. I have no idea how long these films are. If they're as long as LotR, I honestly think that's overkill, from the professional critic's POV.

As for me, though, I don't really care. PJ is taking me to Middle-earth. :) Again. :) Just don't bore me too much with over-long King Kong type action sequences, PJ!

I know pretty much what I'm in for, and I hope that PJ's Hobbit is as good as his FotR:EE ... by far my favourite. :)

If it's worse, well ... at least Martin Freeman and Richard Armitage will be my consolations! :) And McKellan, of course. 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:27 pm 
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Pearly Di wrote:
Shelob'sAppetite wrote:
Yes. There are absolutely no meaty, believable, very positive reviews, as there were for FOTR. People are certainly not liking this as much.


It has to be borne in mind that critics might well be in a mood to affect slight boredom with the 'PJ in Middle-earth' thing. 'Been there, done that, got the T-shirt with LotR' ... that kind of thing.


Yes, I think a higher degree of critical negativity is to be expected this time around for at least 3 reasons:
-LotR set a high bar and The Hobbit will be measured against that, instead of all the dreck out there.
-The defending champion is an inherently less sympathetic character than the scrappy underdog
-A substantial subset of critics like to feel edgy and contrarian. It's not very hip to like something that's already popular.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:31 pm 
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Alatar wrote:
Have to say, thats not what I'm seeing. I think (no offense intended) that you guys are seeing what you want to see, highlighting the bits that coincide with your preconceived notions, and dismissing the rest. Now, you may well be right, but I think if you search for negativity you'll be sure to find it.


See this is the sort of thing I am talking about. I'm not dismissing anything anyone has said either positive or negative. I suppose though it is fair that my motives should be examined if I insist on trying to discern the motives of reviewers.

Just to be clear, I am critiquing the reviews, not the movie. Some of the reviews have a PR-ish feel. We live in a day where ringers (not the same as Tolkien fans) are used to plant stories. There appears to me to be evidence of this.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:41 pm 
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Pearly Di wrote:
Just don't bore me too much with over-long King Kong type action sequences, PJ!


I hear you. But I fear you may be disappointed. One of the more constantly reoccurring criticisms is that there are lots and lots of over-long and overcooked action sequences, with some of them being very cartoonish. I hope the rest of the film balances some of that out, but we are probably looking at excesses that go far, far beyond the LOTR films.


Last edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:43 pm 
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Alatar wrote:
Have to say, thats not what I'm seeing. I think (no offense intended) that you guys are seeing what you want to see, highlighting the bits that coincide with your preconceived notions, and dismissing the rest. Now, you may well be right, but I think if you search for negativity you'll be sure to find it.

Now I know thats equally true for the optimistic, so I'm trying to disregard to more extreme angles on both sides and what I'm getting is a pretty consistent B+ or A- vibe.


But all I am saying is that it seems reviewers are not liking it "as much" as LOTR.

So far, this is borne out by a much lower Rottentomatoes score: 74% vs. the very high 90s for LOTR. Though that could change swiftly as more reviews pour in.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_hob ... d_journey/


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:50 am 
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For those not on Facebook, just saw this on Ian McKellen's page:

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Join us for a LIVE Twitter Q&A with Sir Ian McKellen tomorrow (Wednesday, December 5th) at 1pm PST / 4pm EST!

Follow @TheHobbitMovie on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thehobbitmovie) to participate, and start sending in your questions for Ian now using the hashtag #AskGandalf!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:33 pm 
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From Telemachos at TORC (someone whose opinion I respect quite a bit):

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I've seen it.

I liked it a lot -- but it's very much a theatrical "extended edition", and honestly I felt it's a cut below the three LOTR films. There's lots of little bits and pieces that were not absolutely necessary for the sheer thrust of the story, but were kept for extra detail and/or exploration. Get ready, because in certain spots, it's much more a "Further Adventures in Middle-Earth" than a straight telling of "The Hobbit", and yet, in spots, it's almost verbatim. It also feels basically like the first act of a story -- it's hard to comment fully on some things without seeing if/how they pay off later.

48fps.... I (surprisingly) loved it. I had been somewhat apprehensive about it given all the negative buzz, but aside from a few shots at the beginning where people's movements seemed odd it felt very natural almost immediately. Vivid, crisp, lush 3D, always clear in action scenes and never eye-straining. It looked tremendous... not like film, but then again, I don't think 3D looks or feels like film at all.

Ask any spoiler-y questions you want, I'll try to answer.


http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic. ... 2&t=104658

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:55 pm 
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I guess that means I'm off the hook! :)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:03 pm 
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Not really. I still want to know what you think of the film overall, and of the HFR!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:47 pm 
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Telemachos wrote:
Voronwe_the_Faithful wrote:
'Good morning'?


Almost verbatim.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:52 pm 
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I guess this is one of the things we've been wanting to know, with regards to the decision to stretch to a third movie:


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Nilson_The_White wrote:So did the "further adventures in Middle Earth" work well as B story cutaways, or is it sloppy and without immediately apparent purpose? Is there enough Necromancer storyline to make it click in the first film, or too little?


Parts worked better than others. I liked the Erebor prologue quite a bit. The Battle of Moria, which sets up Azog, and is told in flashback by Balin to Bilbo while they're out in the wild, could've been more effective as just a few brief flashes, I think. Radagast's Mirkwood adventure is fine as far as it goes, but it's a bit redundant because Radagast relays the same information to Gandalf later.

The Necromancer story does not feature heavily -- it's more signs and portents that there's something dark and amiss. Taken just as a single movie, I can understand why some reviewers don't get the point, since it doesn't pay off in this film.


It seems this explains why non-initiated audiences (including the critics) are seemingly finding the extra stuff simply extraneous padding that slows the action down...

When asked if he left the film wanting more at the end, Tele also wrote:
Quote:
Although I confess because of the added material I'm now less-certain of how the journey will unfold -- that's one thing (more than anything) that separates this from the LOTR movies, for me.

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Last edited by Elentári on Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:53 pm 
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Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Telemachos wrote:
Voronwe_the_Faithful wrote:
'Good morning'?


Almost verbatim.


For the first time in a long time, I am somewhat pleased with Peter Jackson.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:53 pm 
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He also says, however (somewhat cryptically):

Quote:
What's odd (or what I had forgotten), is how some things can be almost verbatim, then skew suddenly in a different direction. So, be ready! :D


Not quite sure if that was specifically in response to my question about "Good morning" or not.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:56 pm 
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Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
He also says, however (somewhat cryptically):

Quote:
What's odd (or what I had forgotten), is how some things can be almost verbatim, then skew suddenly in a different direction. So, be ready! :D


Not quite sure if that was specifically in response to my question about "Good morning" or not.


It doesn't seem that he was commenting specifically on that. And honestly, if the dialogue is in almost verbatim, then Bilbo can hop on a giant butterfly and flutter off into the wind immediately afterwards, and I wouldn't care. It's in!

I can see Bilbo's final "good morning!" (by which he means "goodbye") not making it in, however, which would be a shame. That's the best bit of Englishness in the book, IMO.

Perhaps Bilbo gets rather cross instead, and simply tells him to go away?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:01 pm 
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We've already heard something from somebody to that effect, although unfortunately my brain doesn't seem to be firing on sufficiently cylinders to recall who it was, or exactly what was said.

Still, given my long-held fear that the sequence would basically be replaced altogether, I am a happy camper.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:06 pm 
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Here's what I was thinking of:

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
A thoughtful, lukewarm review by Richard Corliss in Time:

http://entertainment.time.com/2012/12/0 ... ack-again/

As to the burning subject at hand, he says this:

Quote:
And so faithful to the book is the movie that Middle Earth geeks will be flummoxed by the few changes (replacing Tolkien’s songs for the elves and goblins with other airs) and deletions (of, for example, Biblo’s dismissive line to Gandalf — “But please come to tea… Come tomorrow! Good bye!” — that sets the whole quest in motion).


Does that mean that the rest of the Good Morning sequence is in? Or it is really that the wholly sequence is deleted and he is only using that line as an example.

Enquiring minds want to know!

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