Elentári wrote:On the subject of posts at TORn Darkstone did a little research and discovered that some of the bunny-sled/bird poop ideas are not without precedent within Tolkien's beloved Norse mythology:
Norse mythology is full of silly and ridiculous draft animals. Freya rode into battle in a wagon pulled by two kitty cats. (Big kitty cats, but kitty cats nonetheless.) Thor drove into battle behind two goats. Frey rode a boar!
...
BTW, Thor had a few adventures while having a giant's metal weapon point broke off in the middle of his forehead.
Also, Odin went around with a couple of ravens, Huginn and Muninn (Thought and Memory), riding around on his shoulders. As a result, his shoulders were liberally splattered with "Mistletoe", literally "branch dung", aka, "bird poop". Keep that translation in mind next time someone asks you to close your eyes so they can kiss you under the mistletoe.
Finally, hares pulling sledges is mentioned in Tolkien's beloved Finnish myths.
Seems the team has done some homework after all, and I personally think GDT was the driving force behind these ideas - remember the "Thorn"/Thorin helmet controversy? He got that from the "Thorn" rune (Þ, þ) for "Th"
I wish Darkstone had actually referenced these descriptions in more detail. I recall a piece of a hone stuck in Donner's head (and see below on the 'god-nails' for example).
And, well Thor is a god of course.
Skáldskaparmál
'(...) Hrungnir lifted up the hone in both hands and cast it against him; it struck the hammer in flight, and the hone burst in sunder: one part fell to the earth, and thence are come all the flint-rocks; the other burst on Thor's head, so that he fell forward to the earth. But the hammer Mjöllnir struck Hrungnir in the middle of the head, and smashed his skull into small crumbs, and he fell forward upon Thor, so that his foot lay over Thor's neck. Thjálfi struck at Mökkurkálfi, and he fell with little glory. Thereupon Thjálfi went over to Thor and would have lifted Hrungnir's foot off him, but could not find sufficient strength. Straightway all the Æsir came up, when they, learned that Thor was fallen, and would have lifted the foot from off him, and could do nothing. Then Magni came up, son of Thor and Járnsaxa: he was then three nights old; he cast the foot of Hrungnir off Thor, and spake: 'See how ill it is, father, that I came so late: I had struck this giant dead with my fist, methinks, if I had met with him.' Thor arose and welcomed his son, saying that he should surely become great; 'And I will give thee,' he said, the horse Gold-Mane, which Hrungnir possessed.' Then Odin spake and said that Thor did wrong to give the good horse to the son of a giantess, and not to his father.
XXV. Frá Gróu völu
"Thor went home to Thrúdvangar, and the hone remained sticking in his head. Then came the wise woman who was called Gróa, wife of Aurvandill the Valiant: she sang her spells over Thor until the hone was loosened. But when Thor knew that, and thought that there was hope that the hone might be removed, he desired to reward Gróa for her leech-craft and make her glad, and told her these things: that he had waded from the north over Icy Stream and had borne Aurvandill in a basket on his back from the north out of Jötunheim. And he added for a token, that one of Aurvandill's toes had stuck out of the basket, and became frozen; wherefore Thor broke it off and cast it up into the heavens, and made thereof the star called Aurvandill's Toe. Thor said that it would not be long ere Aurvandill came home: but Gróa was so rejoiced that she forgot her incantations, and the hone was not loosened, and stands yet in Thor's head. Therefore it is forbidden to cast a hone across the floor, for then the hone is stirred in Thor's head. Thjódólfr of Hvin has made a song after this tale in the Haustlöng. It says there:
(...)'
Also, in what Runo can we find the rabbit sledge? I have Kalevala but it's a bit long to re-read if the reference is but a sentence or two, and I would be interested in the context myself (incidentally I don't think goats or a boar are silly, although these things are subjective of course).
Anyway... OK Tolkien's beloved Norse or Finnish mythology. And? Is the intended implication that Tolkien would have known of these things and thus approved of their injection in a film adaptation
of his tale? Of if we can find something in these mythologies -- as opposed to mere Jacksonian invention -- it necessarily belongs in a 'faithful' adaptation of Tolkien's tale?
To my mind all
Darkstone has done is point out that these things are not mere modern invention (from GDT or anyone) and can be found in myths and legends -- from very different stories and contexts compared to Tolkien's
The Hobbit. Tolkien knew and loved plenty of myths and tales, and when we swim out of those very general waters, do we know, for instance, that he would not have been furious with this (theoretical in a sense, at this point, before final cut) specific depiction of Radagast, or putting an axe into the head of one of his Dwarves?
Of course we don't know his reaction either way, but the point is that this sort of 'homework' only goes so far in my opinion, and that the idea of injecting
something into
The Hobbit from a myth or tale Tolkien himself knew or loved opens a
very wide door in my opinion.
__________
The myth of the duel between Thor and Hrungnir ends with small piece of whetstone embedded in the god's head. This may be linked to Lapp practice of driving an iron or steel nail into the head of an image of the Thunder God, in order to use it as a source of fire.... The whetstone of the giant, encountering the iron hammer of the god, could be equivalent to kindling of fire with flint and steel. Thor's temple is also associated with fire in the Kjalnesinga Saga, in that altar said to be be made of iron on top - the place for the fire, which was never allowed to go out. Link to Thor's power over lightning - the fire from heaven.
http://www.philhine.org.uk/writings/sp_thorwch.html
(...) H.R. Ellis-Davidson also mentions the "god-nails" in the pillars of Thórólfr's temple, comparing them to the seventeenth-century Lappish thunder-god images which held hammers and had an iron nail and a bit of flint driven into the head for striking fire. She suggests that the 'god-nails' might have been used for striking ritual fire, and also have been connected with the bit of whetstone left in Thórr's head after his battle with Hrungnir (Gods and Myths of Northern Europe, pp. 78-79). If this is so, it would strengthen our understanding of the God/esses as taking part in our religion on every level--even the most physical, where Thorr stands as the earthly giver of the hallowed hof-fires!
http://www.ravenkindred.com/June94/idol.html
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