Hobbit film adaptation and split point choices

For discussion of the upcoming films based on The Hobbit and related material, as well as previous films based on Tolkien's work
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SirDennis
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Post by SirDennis »

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote: And Dennis (if you are reading this), you'll note in that article that it states (even way back in 2008) that the first movie was planned for 2011. So the delays only cost one year, not two.
Why wouldn't I be reading this? :D

That does contradict what the press release stated almost a year before that.
I've pieced together what can be called the progression of the shift of release dates (not including the original press release linked to already):

-- http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/g ... 1518#71518

-- http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/g ... 3653#73653

-- http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/g ... 6545#86545

-- Probably the best indicator before it became official, from Variety April 28, 2008: "With del Toro blocking out four years for the project, it's likely that the studios are aiming at starting shooting next year and releasing the films in late 2011 and 2012." http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117984595?refCatId=13
note here the 4 year block. If the December 2011 date was to be met, filming would have had to begin around the time he left.

After reviewing many posts, I'll grant that it does appear that a 2011 release date was always the intended target as far as GDT was concerned. The first murmurs of it coincide with early (ahead of an official announcement) talk of him directing.

(Sorry to keep linking to TORn btw. Haven't mastered the search function here yet.)

And now back to your regularly scheduled thread. :oops:
Last edited by SirDennis on Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

No problem with linking to TORN discussions; that's where the most discussions have taken place, particularly when GdT was around.
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SirDennis
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Post by SirDennis »

(In all honesty though, I'm getting tired of talking about the past. It is important to keep it all straight, especially as published accounts are sure to be forthcoming. But as news of concrete progress is trickling out now, like you, I'm ready to cast my eyes forward.)
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Post by Alatar »

Nice detective work V, I have to say thats not the order I remember it in, but I don't have the patience (or time) to explore further, so I'll take your timeline as accurate.

Dennis, I agree on looking to the future, but since we've never really been given any more concrete detail, (or even contradictory detail) these statements are all we have to go on.

I'm personally of the opinion that the split will occur roughly around "Barrels out of Bond" but that's just my opinion. Naturally, when GdT says stuff like "Its the obvious split" then I assume he's agreeing with where I personally think is obvious, which is a bit of a leap really! He may think the obvious place to split is at the death of Smaug, based on similar reasoning to that of Cranium. We just won't know until a more definite statement is made. Right now, the only definitive statement ever made by one of the writing team is that Smaug will die in Film One. I think it would be foolish to ignore that until we hear a definitive statement otherwise!
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Yeah, but it's my opinion, too. If you any both agree it is the right place, it must be the obvious place. 8)

Edited to add: I agree about looking forward, but we're doing that as much as we can, too.
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Post by SirDennis »

Hmmm

When you look at The Hobbit as a continuous narrative, "Barrels out of Bond," instinctively seems a good place for a break.

When you look at it from a tonal point of view there is a definite shift after the death of Smaug -- the tale turns decidedly more serious. As such, instinctively, this seems like a place for a break too. (And not because the death of Smaug is any more climatic than the barrel escape.)

But familiarity with the work tells us (as someone noted already) a break at the death of Smaug leaves very little of the tale for F2.

That is unless, as this BC person suggests, they drag out the build-up to BO5A (similar to Helm's Deep in TT) and/or the BO5A is cast as growing out of the Dol Guldur/White Council thread (likely to be inserted into F2 given the amount of material available for F1 in this scenario).

I disagree that F1 needs "one hell of a climax." FOTR was no worse for the lack of one, even though they moved Boromir's death from the beginning of TT in an effort to achieve such an effect.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

In an earlier discussion (both here and at TORN, I think), I suggested making Bilbo's first visit to see Smaug the climax of the first film. Let's see if I can find my comments ... Here we go:

Why Smaug's Death Needs to Wait for the 2nd Film
As has been discussed elsewhere, the indications from GdT are that the filmmakers are moving away from the idea of one Hobbit film and one "bridge" film, and more towards the idea of two Hobbit films, filled in with other information to a greater or lesser extent. It is unclear exactly how that will work, and in fact GdT has indicated that it continues to be a very fluid process. However, he continues to maintain that the second film will flow into the LOTR films, so that the five films tell one full story.

At one point, GdT indicated that the first film would end at some point after Smaug's death (but presumably not much after it). I have not seen any indication that he has backed away from that comment. However, I strongly believe that for a number of reasons it makes more sense to end the first film before Smaug's death. I believe this is true both from the point of view of making two films that both can stand on their own as well as being part of the full series, and from the point of view of adapting Tolkien work.

First of all, Smaug's death is NOT an important climax in the story of the Hobbit. It is, instead, an anti-climax. The two important climaxes of the story are Bilbo's first confrontation with Smaug, and his decision to steal the Arkenstone in order to try to broker a peaceful settlement of the impasse between the Dwarves and the others. To end the first film with Smaug's death (or soon after) would change that, making Smaug's death the climax of the film. Moreover, it would be virtually impossible to have a heretofore unknown and essentially unimportant character, Bard, be the one to kill Smaug as the climax of the film. That would make no sense at all. Far better to have the first film be all about Bilbo's growth from the comical, soft reluctant anti-hero that we see in the beginning to the brave leader of the expedition who confronts the ultimate evil (the Necromancer is a distant abstraction in the the Hobbit, and he should be no more than that in the first film).

Secondly, the second film needs to have a coherent structure. It can't just be the end of The Hobbit with a bunch of other stuff thrown in. Having Smaug's death towards the beginning of the second film achieves a couple of things. First of all, having a greater portion of the story from The Hobbit in the second film helps to make it that coherent story. More importantly, the filmmakers can use Smaug's anti-climatic demise at the hands of the minor character Bard to help facilitate the transition so that the Necromancer/Sauron becomes the evil focus of the second film (in contrast to the first film). This will enable the filmmakers to add material regarding the White Council (and perhaps even Aragorn) opposing the Necromancer/Sauron to the main storyline, so that the political intrigue involving the Arkenstone gives way to a major battle between the forces of good and the forces of evil that becomes in essence a prequel to the War of the Ring. Unless the battle of five armies is played down majorly, anything that takes place after it in the second film will seem anti-climatic. There simply cannot be a lot of material following the battle. Perhaps as much as was in ROTK following the destruction of the Ring, serving as a bridge to the LOTR films (perhaps ending with Frodo moving in with Bilbo). But no more than that. And I think that will be hard to do if Smaug has already been killed in the first film.
(Hmmmm, it might be worth combining these two threads.)
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Post by SirDennis »

Now that you mention it, a nice cliff hanger effect might be achieved with Bilbo walking into a dark tunnel and the voice of Smaug. Or even meeting Smaug, an initial taste, leaving over the bulk of their encounter for F2.

Now I am full of doubt as to where the break should be. Are we talking about instinct or Spidey Sense?
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Post by Inanna »

I think having Smaug die at the end of Movie I also sends a false message that "The Hobbit" is complete - We came to kill the dragon, we have done so, and tra-la-lally. Like FOTR and TTT, Hobbit I needs a climax, but an inconclusive climax. The death of Smaug is too conclusive.

I like the idea of Bilbo sneaking into Smaug's cave as an ending.

We haven't heard anything about this from PJ?
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Nothing, so far as I know.
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Post by Holbytla »

Given what we have in evidence, (PJ making LOTR), does anyone suppose that TBOFA won't be exceedingly long and drawn out while Bilbo messes around stealing the Arkenstone? I am thinking Smaug descending on Laketown could be an obvious split. A cliff hanger of sorts. And that would give PF and Co. ample material to fill a second film.
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Post by Inanna »

Excepet that PJ doesn't tend to go in for cliffhangers as movie endings. And I like that - I hope that trend continues in the Hobbit.

The barrels approaching with lake town/Misty Mountain looming up ahead - nice, scenic shot - seems to be more of PJ's style.

Just look at FOTR and TTT endings....
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Post by Dave_LF »

I repeat myself, but I'd like to see it just a little after that, when they arrive at Laketown. Watch the R&B cartoon sometime: "I am Thorin, son of Thrain, son of Thror, King Under the Mountain. I have returned."

Edit: Found a link. I didn't quite remember the quote right, but I like my way better. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWk37qVIk9I&t=3m15s
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Post by Inanna »

But reaching Laketown is like having a split after reaching Amon Hen.... I am leaning more and more towards floating on the river.... zoom out... laketown and Misty Mountain view.
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Post by axordil »

It occurs to me that it would be relatively easy to portray the assault on Dol Guldur as a preemptive strike to keep any force from there from participating in the Bo5A, roughly paralleling the plot line of TTT.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Except that that would make the sudden transition from a looming battle between the Elves/Men and Dwarves into mutual battle against the evil Goblins and Wargs impossible to pull off.
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Post by Elentári »

Something else to consider is whether Film 2 should have both the assualt on DG and the Bo5A? Depending on how PJ s planning to portray the White Wizard's attack, if military force is used as well, we would end up with possibly too much fight action in the second film.

Bearing in mind PJ's preference for setting the action chronologically in LotR, we may well see the assault on DG in the first film intercut with Thorin and Company's adventures in Mirkwood...
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Yeah, that's what I am expecting, Elen. But who really knows?
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Post by Dave_LF »

Making the Necromancer plotline relevant to the main one really does seem to require that the assult complete in the second film (assuming they are going to try to do that). The commentor does have a good point about the expanded narrative lending itself naturally to "part 1: an intimate, personal story" and "part 2: geopolitics". I don't think it is necessary to have Smaug die in film 1 to achieve that, though, and doing so would actually remove some of the potential film 2 tension by precluding the possibility of a Necro-Wyrmn alliance.
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