Hobbit film pitfalls

[Primula Baggins]

Episodic isn't what we expect from a big, commercial film. We've all been trained to expect that would-be blockbusters will be constructed in a very specific way (McKee, Story) exemplified by, say, Die Hard, that emphasizes a three-act structure with certain scenes at certain points, and a driving story that carries through the whole thing. There's nothing wrong with it; it doesn't eliminate the possibility of making good movies. But it's not the only way to tell a story, either.

I thought FotR the film worked well precisely because it was episodic. It wasn't predictable, as single-protagonist-with-single-driving-need films can be. It was an effective introduction to Middle-earth because occasionally we were allowed to relax into a place and really see it, just as we are in the book. The book itself breaks McKee's rules; when the hobbits arrive at Rivendell, for example, a new reader doesn't know what they will do next, or even whether they're going to continue in the story.

There's realism in this. Life is episodic. What happens one year often has nothing to do with what happens the next; our "stories" are influenced from many directions, by many people and events, and our own needs and motivations change with time. We don't drive every event that happens in our lives; sometimes we're like the hobbits in Rivendell, standing on a balcony and staring around in amazement.

That's certainly part of what makes me love the book, and part of what made the films such a pleasure for me: that feeling of wandering with the Fellowship through a real world that's much larger than what we see. This as opposed to what my brother (also a writer) calls "Potemkin settings" where you get the feeling that they spring from nothing just as the protagonist arrives, stand long enough for her to rush through full tilt, and then vanish never to be remembered or considered again, by character, reader, or author. Stories like that can be gripping, and really successful. They can also be hollow to the core.

I'm hoping the book wins this one.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Wot shee sed!

[Inanna]

A lot of film-FOTR was pretty episodic and it's part why I'm in the minority opinion that it was probably the weakest of the trilogy.

An extreme minority. Its my favorite of the trilogy.

[yovargas]

A lot of film-FOTR was pretty episodic and it's part why I'm in the minority opinion that it was probably the weakest of the trilogy.

An extreme minority.

I know.

This as opposed to what my brother (also a writer) calls "Potemkin settings" where you get the feeling that they spring from nothing just as the protagonist arrives, stand long enough for her to rush through full tilt, and then vanish never to be remembered or considered again, by character, reader, or author.

I'm not sure what that's aimed at but I'm rather confused by it since it seems like it's simultaneously a pretty good definition and criticism of "episodic".

[Primula Baggins]

It's aimed at the quality of world creation. For me, Middle-earth's realism and completeness, the sense of history and unknown lands just over the horizon, justify not tearing through it full-tilt aimed at one single character goal. Whereas a story that's all about the goal and nothing else (a story that is not episodic) can and often does give only slapdash attention to the setting.

[yovargas]

I think that's an odd interpretation of "episodic". By its nature, "episodic" stories tend to introduce a new place, have whatever little dramatic incident happens there, and then discard that place "never to be remembered or considered again, by character, reader, or author". Like, say, a Carahdras (sp?) - we go there, stuff happens, then we move on like nothing happened. You could entirely extract that "episode" without barely impacting the story before or after. A story where these things are remembered and considered isn't episodic precisely because of that, because they are meaningfully tied together in one way or another.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

It seems like a good time to revive this thread.

I'm somewhat less concerned about Kili after seeing the third production video, though I would still rather he be a bit more dwarvish. I am feeling pretty good about Thorin.

But the axe lodged in Bifur's head (which can be seen in the production video as well) is just plain idiotic, and I think it will be a constant distraction. I was really holding out hope that it was just a gag that was put in the promotion photo, but seeing it in the video too makes that much more unlkely.

Why is Jackson so talented and dedicated, and yet so willing to blight his work with something like this?

[Primula Baggins]

Medically speaking it's nonsense. Something like that would eventually kill any living being. You couldn't heal around it. Even if we assume it's stuck in a very thick skull and didn't penetrate inside, eventually there's going to be an infection or autoimmune disease or both. (You should read about what often happens to sterile implants that are surgically placed. I copyedited a book on that once. Gah!)

Pretending it won't happen in Middle-earth because, hey, magic—that's playing with the net down.

[Teremia]

hey, if we'll allow athelas+king's touch as a medical possibility, why not axes in skulls?

[Elentári]

Pretending it won't happen in Middle-earth because, hey, magic—that's playing with the net down.

Yeah, and like, surely Jackson knows that his LotR was highly praised for making "Fantasy" seem believeable, for rooting it in reality as far as possible, why does he blow it now for some juvenile visual joke?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Exactly. It just doesn't make sense.

It's the old "drawing a smiley face on the Mona Lisa" thing again. Gah!

[Primula Baggins]

hey, if we'll allow athelas+king's touch as a medical possibility, why not axes in skulls?

I guess I have a variable suspension of disbelief. I have an easier time believing that a supernatural process magically works than that a natural process magically fails to work. It's two different kinds of magic. It's as if when the Bridge of Khazâd-Dûm gives way, Gandalf doesn't fall because hey, he's a wizard, right?

ETA: This is skirting on theology and also on a reason I love Tolkien. There's magic in Middle-earth, but the laws of the world also work. People age and die. Accidents happen, even to Elves. People of great power aren't therefore exempt from error and tragedy. This fits with my personal belief in a loving God who loves us within the framework of a world whose natural laws can cause us great pain, loss, and sorrow. God doesn't reach out and prevent all this because that isn't how God, and the universe, work. I don't think joy or beauty would be possible if pain and sorrow were not.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

This falls very firmly in the category of what Tolkien called "a credible green sun." In On Fairy-stories he wrote "To make a Secondary World inside which the green sun will be credible, commanding Secondary Belief, will probably require labour and thought, and will certainly demand a special skill, a kind of elvish craft." Even though Athelas do not exist in the real world, Tolkien certainly succeeds in creating a secondary world in which the healing power of Athelas in the hands of the king is credible. This, on the other hand, is just thrown in there. I cannot imagine any way in which it can be made credible; indeed, I doubt the effort will even be made. It's just a stupid joke, no more and no less.

Grrrr!

[axordil]

Well, it's not impossible.

http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/12165/TN/US/

Dwarves are at least as tough as horses, amirite?

[Primula Baggins]

It's not the wound I can't believe. If he's got a thick skull, which seems right for a Dwarf, he'd be able to survive that if he had the same good luck as the horse.

It's the ax staying in the wound and the wound healing around it. Nuh-uh.

[axordil]

But....but...people get steel plates in their heads all the time! This one is just sideways!

[Primula Baggins]

And steel plates can cause problems. And they're protected by an intact layer of skin. This isn't—the skin integrity is broken all around the ax head or whatever the heck it is. That's just a highway for bacteria. Not to mention that I doubt the ax head was surgical steel.

It's simply a preposterosity.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Preposterosity.

My goodness, that is perfect.

[Holbytla]

.....

Why is Jackson so talented and dedicated, and yet so willing to blight his work with something like this?

You could ask the same question for many rock stars, actors and artists.

Large left-side brains which makes them talented and apparently unstable at the same time. If you exorcised the instability you would also eradicate the talent.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

True enough, but "many rock stars, actors and artists" aren't making live action adaptations of Tolkien's books.

Darn preposterosity!