Thoughts about The Hobbit that might have been

For discussion of the upcoming films based on The Hobbit and related material, as well as previous films based on Tolkien's work
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Thoughts about The Hobbit that might have been

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

[Note: the original title of this thread was "I think we were saved from disaster" but as eborr and Sir Dennis pointed out, that title was unnecessarily combative, and certainly did not reflect the respect and admiration that I have for Guillermo del Toro. I have changed the title, but noted the original title here for posterity's sake - VtF]

The New Yorker has a long article/interview with Guillermo del Toro that includes some discussion of his ideas for the Hobbit films, and all I can say is that I am relieved that he is no longer on the project. A few quotes:
He told me that each of his notebooks was “an art project in itself.” He’d bought seven leather-bound journals at an antiquarian bookstore in Venice. I opened up his current notebook, which included sketches for “The Hobbit,” while he put on a plastic bib bearing the inscription “I ♥ RIBS.” Ink drawings of creatures were surrounded by text that jumped between Spanish and English: captions, musings, story ideas. The first drawing I saw was titled “Peces Sin Ojos”—“Fish Without Eyes.” Del Toro writes with a fountain pen, and lately he has used a Montblanc ink the color of blood. The over-all effect is that of a Leonardo codex.

I paused at what looked like an image of a double-bitted medieval hatchet. “That’s Smaug,” del Toro said. It was an overhead view: “See, he’s like a flying axe.” Del Toro thinks that monsters should appear transformed when viewed from a fresh angle, lest the audience lose a sense of awe. Defining silhouettes is the first step in good monster design, he said. “Then you start playing with movement. The next element of design is color. And then finally—finally—comes detail. A lot of people go the other way, and just pile up a lot of detail.”

I turned to a lateral image of the dragon. Smaug’s body, as del Toro had imagined it, was unusually long and thin. The bones of its wings were articulated on the dorsal side, giving the creature a slithery softness across its belly. “It’s a little bit more like a snake,” he said. I thought of his big Russian painting. Del Toro had written that the beast would alight “like a water bird.”

Smaug’s front legs looked disproportionately small, like those of a T. rex. This would allow the dragon to assume a different aspect in closeup: the camera could capture “hand” gestures and facial expressions in one tight frame, avoiding the quivery distractions of wings and tail. (Smaug is a voluble, manipulative dragon; Tolkien describes him as having “an overwhelming personality.”) Smaug’s eyes, del Toro added, were “going to be sculpturally very hidden.” This would create a sense of drama when the thieving Bilbo stirs the beast from slumber.

Del Toro wanted to be creative with the wing placement. “Dragon design can be broken into essentially two species,” he explained at one point. Most had wings attached to the forelimbs. “The only other variation is the anatomically incorrect variation of the six-appendage creature”—four legs, like a horse, with two additional winged arms. “But there’s no large creature on earth that has six appendages!” He had become frustrated while sketching dragons that followed these schemes. The journal had a discarded prototype. “Now, that’s a dragon you’ve seen before,” he said. “I just added these samurai legs. That doesn’t work for me.”

Del Toro’s production design for “The Hobbit” seemed similarly intent on avoiding things that viewers had seen before. Whereas Jackson’s compositions had been framed by the azure New Zealand sky, del Toro planned to employ digital “sky replacement,” for a more “painterly effect.” Sometimes, instead of shooting in an actual forest, he wanted to shoot amid artificial trees that mimicked the “drawings in Tolkien’s book.” In his journal, I spied many creatures with no precedent in Tolkien, such as an armor-plated troll that curls into a ball of metal plates. Del Toro said that it would be boring to make a slavish adaptation. “Hellboy,” he noted, was based on a popular comic-book series, but he had liberally changed the story line, and the demon had become an emotionally clumsy nerd. “I am Hellboy,” he said.

Even the major characters of “The Hobbit” bore del Toro’s watermark. In one sketch, the dwarf Thorin, depicted in battle, wore a surreal helmet that appeared to be sprouting antlers. “They’re thorns—his name is Thorin, after all,” he said. The flourish reminded me of a similar arboreal creature in “Hellboy II,” which was slightly worrying. That film is so overpopulated with monsters that it begins to feel like a Halloween party overrun by crashers. Midway through the film, del Toro stages a delightful but extraneous action sequence in a creature-clogged “troll market” hidden beneath the Brooklyn Bridge. The scene comes across as del Toro’s bid to supplant the famous Cantina scene in “Star Wars.”

...
He was adamant that he had left “The Hobbit” of his own accord, but his language seemed careful. “The visual aspect was under my control,” he said. “There was no interference with that creation.” In collaboration with Jackson and two screenwriters, del Toro had completed drafts for Parts 1 and 2. But final revisions were still to come, and he noted that any “strong disagreements” between him and Jackson would have occurred when they debated which scenes to film and which to cut—“You know, ‘I want to keep this.’ ‘I want to keep that.’ ” But, he said, he had quit “before that impasse.” I asked him if there had been creative tension. At Weta, he said, the production delay had made everyone anxious, and he “could not distinguish between a real tension and an artificial tension.”

He admitted that there had been discomfort over his design of Smaug. “I know this was not something that was popular,” he said. He said that he had come up with several audacious innovations—“Eight hundred years of designing dragons, going back to China, and no one has done it!”—but added that he couldn’t discuss them, because the design was not his intellectual property. “I have never operated with that much secrecy,” he said of his time at Weta.
Show The Monster - Guillermo del Toro’s quest to get amazing creatures onscreen

I sure GdT is a very talented filmmaker, but I would hate to see someone take those kind of liberties with Tolkien's work. Jackson, at least, can be relied upon to make things look reasonably consistent with what Tolkien wrote. There is no way that I would enjoy an adaptation of the Hobbit that included an armor plated troll that curls into a ball of metal plates. Or anything like that. Ugh!
Last edited by Voronwë the Faithful on Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Elentári »

Wow! :shock:

Have to say I'm relieved PJ is back at the helm too...
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Post by Alatar »

Makes you wonder if certain posters on other sites will continue to claim everything wonderful was GdT's influence and everything clumsy is typical PJ.
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Post by yovargas »

I wanna see it. I've seen a billion fantasy dragons over the years. The prospect of someone attempting to approach it from a more personal, imaginative way is much more exiting to me than seeing the same ol' trolls and beasts we've all seem endless times before.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

It's not the Smaug comments that bothered me. I actually kinda like what he had to say about Smaug, and I won't be surprised if much if not all of it survives. But some of the other stuff is way too far out there for me.
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Post by Dave_LF »

I think we were saved from disaster
Or maybe we're just out of the frying pan into the fire.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I don't know. "Hobbitboy II" would have made me pretty unhappy. I thought Hellboy was fun, but Hellboy II wore me out with effects and monsters, and I am not easily science fictioned or fantasied out. And I had no stake at all in the original story; I never read it or even knew what it was. This is different.
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Post by yovargas »

I didn't really think HB2's problem was too-much effects so much as not enough story. I suspect with a story to care about all the wiz-bang effects probably wouldn't have gotten so tiresome. I wasn't expecting that problem with The Hobbit.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

No, but even with a good story, out of context designs would be very distracting. An armor plated troll that curls into a ball of metal plates might fit with the metal dragons in the original Lost Tale "Tuor and the Exiles of Gondolin (aka "The Fall of Gondolin") but not with The Hobbit.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Alatar wrote:Makes you wonder if certain posters on other sites will continue to claim everything wonderful was GdT's influence and everything clumsy is typical PJ.
I doubt it. ;)
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Post by axordil »

I too hope some reflection of the thought process GdT details for Smaug's design shows up in the finished product. But the armidiltrolls would have been strange in context..
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Armiditrollls! :rotfl:
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Post by WampusCat »

Armidiltrolls remind me too much of the droid soldiers in the Star Wars prequels.
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Post by Holbytla »

Better the devil you know I guess.
Well visually anyway.
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Post by eborr »

Having quickly read the article I cannot see really what you folks are fussing about.

Certainly I don't see there is anyhing wrong in trying to get a "new" take on the dragon, I thought the notion of the small fore-arms to draw you into the dragons personality was quite an evocative thought, many of the rest of the comments seem much more like Del Toro jokes, certainly the idea of Thorin with thorns coming out of his heads hilarious. Similarly the troll market and the troll curling up into a ball are straight references from Hellboy.

It's one of Del Toros traits that he does make cross-references of some of his favourite concepts between movies.

I am also quite surprised that folk are judging his performance based entirely on Hellboy, completly forgetting the highly poetic and evocative touch of Pan's Labyrinthe, with shows an affinity of touch with european Faerie which is completly beyond anything that the PJ has demonstrated.

I also feel that he is a much stronger story-teller than PJ + 2, and whilst not flawless his dialogue is far more effective than that employed in the LOTR(well those bits that weren't more than straight lifts from the books).

Whilst I was reasoably content with most of the look of LORT, the story adaption wasn't great, and I genuinely think the story in the Hobbit would have fared better under GDT

However I didn't like the idea of the digital sky stuff, certainly the digital environment created in the ROTK was awful, compared with the naturalistic look of FOTR and TTT, I hope PJ returns to that.
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Post by sauronsfinger »

WOW!!! Boy am I glad that PJ is helming this. Much in this article really put me off from the vision Del Toro has for HOBBIT. We will now have a unified set of films and that makes sense.

Thorns in his helmet because his name is Thorin! No thank you.
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Post by eborr »

I have re-read the article and I still don't really see anything predjudicial in it.

The Thorin hat thing is a joke, may not be a very good one, but neither was the dwarfe throwing or the drinking contest.

I think the association of HB2 with the Hobbit is pretty unfortunate and journalistically very lazy, and whilst Del Toro is on record saying how much he enjoys designing monsters, there is no reason to have assumed he would have deployed a troll market. Most of his commentary at the time when he was associated with the film was focused on Smaug, the Spiders and the Waargs/Wolves , creatures which all figure in the story. Some of which absolutely needed to be re-visited, especially the muddy Waarg things which were not up to much.

To go back to the article in they talk about the creation of the woods being based on Tolkeins illustrations rather that natural forest, In principle I don't really like that idea, but within the scope of an artistic vision it's acceptable. Don't forget PJ's creation of Fangorn was entirely artificial, and whilst it did create the impression of other-worldliness I didn't find that 100% convincing.

So in summary, don't see that GDT was going to do much outside of PJ normal modus operandi, don't see any evidence of a flawed artistic vision. I would agree that some of the choices he was going to make would strike me as questionable, but nothing remotely outside the scope of artistic choice that PJ made in the LOTR.

Strikes me that the article may be some studio propoganda to cover the loss of GDT, which is probably not necessary, given that if GDT is not available the only sane option is to have PJ run with it.
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Post by ToshoftheWuffingas »

I didn't get shudders of distaste from the article either. I haven't seen Hellboy but I was certainly impressed with the atmosphere of Pan's Labyrinth. I would have been happy to have trusted to Del Toro's aesthetic vision but alas it is not to be. I hope we get to see those designs and notebooks one day though.
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Post by Alatar »

From TORN
While Guillermo del Toro is no longer directing The Hobbit, and the content of the recent The New Yorker article is rather dated, our good friends at the Dutch site DeHobbit.net were kind enough to share a rendering of Smaug based on Guillermo’s vision. What do you think? Thanks to DeHobbit.net for sending us the image.
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Post by Alatar »

I've held off on saying this, because I wanted to see if Guillermo's designs surprised me in a good way. However, from the very beginning when he talked about finding a new design for Smaug, I got uncomfortable. Smaug is the archetypal Dragon. We have JRRTs own drawings as a basis and the considerable skills of John Howe and Alan Lee to take those drawings to a new artistic level. While I would personally prefer John Howe's "Death of Smaug" to be the model for Smaug, I would be happy with Lee's design also.

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What I don't want is a reimagined Smaug, made to look different for the sake of looking different.

I don't really care if hundreds of people have done Dragons before. There's no need to reinvent the wheel.
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