The Hobbit without Elrond. An option?

[Alatar]

The lack of mention of Hugo Weaving in almost all the reports has me wondering a bit. Although I'm not one of those who hated his portrayal, I don't know anyone who felt he was the perfect Elrond. His character in the LotR movies was redefined to fit the Arwen/Aragorn tension, the unwilling heir. LotR Elrond was smug, calculating and practically racist. Not the learned scholar and welcomer of the weary traveller we see in the Hobbit.

So, given all this, is there any possibility they will omit Elrond? I know it seems unlikely, but given the lack of any real casting rumours about Hugo Weaving's return it has to be considered. I don't think Rivendell can or will be omitted, since we need a place of respite before the Misty Mountains, but what of Elrond? His function, namely to identify Orcrist and Glamdring and to read the Moon runes, could easily be either dropped (in the case of the swords) or given to another character, such as Gandalf.

By ramping up the White Council, we can have Galadriel, Radagast, Saruman and Gandalf providing the "lore" aspect. Is Elrond needed there? Not so much. All the White Council stuff would probably be better suited geographically to Lórien, or even Rhosgobel, given Gandalf's departure at the edge of Mirkwood.

Personally, for continuity, I hope we see Elrond in Rivendell, even if its just a five minute cameo. I would prefer to see him part of the White Council, but I could live without it.

(Of course he'll probably be announced tomorrow and this thread will be meaningless, but its fun to speculate!)

[Dave_LF]

Elrond's already been established as the master of Rivendell; I think it would be pretty awkward to have the party arrive there and not see him. Who would greet them? Who would say goodbye? And I think we've heard about Rivendell miniatures being built, so they don't seem to be planning on axing it altogether either. But yeah; it's pretty weird that Weaving is hardly ever mentioned in these things.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

No way they are going to not have Elrond. It will either be Hugo, or someone else. The disadvantage of replacing him is far outweighed by the disadvantages of not having the part in the films. Even causual film fans who have never read the books would wonder how there could be a council without Elrond, let alone the fact that he is necessary for the Rivendell scenes.

[axordil]

All nicities of plot and context aside, structurally, the story consists of cycles of:
Tension building
Action sequence
R & R

Rivendell is the first R & R scene. If they keep the periodic story structure, they need something like it in that spot.

Note the if. One could change the structure in any number of ways by omitting/adding/reshaping the constituent scenes.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

If they weren't adding the White Council aspect, I could imagine the possibility of them eliminating Rivendell and Elrond altogether (though I wouldn't like it one bit). But with the added reason to have him (plus the amount of time needed to fill two films), I can't picture it. Even if they have to replace Hugo.

[vison]

Um. I liked Hugo Weaving. I HATED what they made Elrond into, but I think Weaving could have been the right sort of Elrond, if that's the way the part had been written.

I never saw the man before LOTR, so had no idea he was in that Matrix thing.

[Elentári]

Um. I liked Hugo Weaving. I HATED what they made Elrond into, but I think Weaving could have been the right sort of Elrond, if that's the way the part had been written.

I never saw the man before LOTR, so had no idea he was in that Matrix thing.

Me too! (except that I knew he was Priscilla - oh, no, wait, that's the bus... )

[eborr]

answer to the problem, Elrond is on vacation in Osgiliath, together with Tom Bom

[WampusCat]

Elrond is traveling to Lórien with Legolas and Haldir in Priscilla, Queen of the Wilderness. Hilarity and cross-dressing ensue.

[Lalaith]

I hope they don't leave Elrond out, and I hope Weaving plays him again. I liked him, even though they changed his character for the movies. (Whose character did they not change?) I think it will be awkward to write the movie without Elrond.

[Kezmoid]

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the Rivendell scenes will be cut completely. Once Bilbo and the Dwarves set out on their adventure I don't think PJ wants them stopping for a lengthy rest so soon.

Elrond may still appear at the White Council but I agree with Alatar that he's not really needed with Galadriel, Saruman, Gandalf and Radagast there.

[Frelga]

All nicities of plot and context aside, structurally, the story consists of cycles of:
Tension building
Action sequence
R & R

Rivendell is the first R & R scene. If they keep the periodic story structure, they need something like it in that spot.

Note the if. One could change the structure in any number of ways by omitting/adding/reshaping the constituent scenes.

don't know, ax. R&R scenes in FOTR:

Farmer Maggot - cut
Crickhollow - cut
Tom Bombadil - cut
Bree (at first, anyway) - made menacing

They don't really need Rivendell.

[axordil]

Frelga--

The problem then becomes: what to put between the Trolls and the Goblins. Both scenes are required, the first because they were referred to in LOTR and the second because it sets up both Gollum and the Battle of Five Armies.

Here's the required content breakdown as I see it:

Unexpected Party
Leaving Shire/travel
Trolls
Rivendell
Mountains/travel
Goblins
Caves
Gollum
Wargs
Beorn
Mirkwood/travel
Spiders
Elves
Halls of Thranduil
Barrels
Laketown
travel
Erebor
Hidden Door
Smaug and Bilbo
Attack on Laketown
Dwarves in Erebor
Bilbo and Arkenstone
buildup to BO5A
BO5A
Thorin's Death
Bilbo's Return

There's already a fair amount of unrelenting material between Rivendell and Beorn. They need to punctuate it. Current scriptwriting doctrine is to think in terms of a feature film being composed of 6-8 "mini-movies," each with a predictable rhythm (though not identical--beginnings and endings have different rules).

Casting a long shadow over all this is the White Council/DG stuff, of course, the introduction of which complicates the model. But that plotline doesn't strike me as having a lot of built-in R&R.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Unlike LOTR, The Hobbit is really tailor-made for a film adaptation. Either PJ or GdT specifically stated in the Empire interview that all the major scenes of the book were going to be included. That certainly would include Rivendell.

[Inanna]

Am sure they will include Rivendell. Remember, there are going to be TWO movies.

Unlike LOTR, The Hobbit is really tailor-made for a film adaptation.

Why do you say so V?

[Kezmoid]

It was this little snippet of information from TheOneRing.net (along with the news that Hugo Weaving hasn't been cast) that got me thinking that Rivendell sequence would be cut.

... Some additional ramblings from me: I also took a LOTR tour in Wellington, no activity on the Rivendell Set in Kaitoke Regional Park, but will be interesting to see if they return to same location. ...

It could be that they will be rebuilding the set sometime in the future. However, considering they've already re-built Hobbiton, why not Rivendell as well? They already know the location and what it would look like (unless Del Toro planned on a major redesign - something that has escaped my notice, if he mentioned it) unlike some of the other film locations such as Laketown or the Lonely Mountain. So perhaps it's because Rivendell won't be in the films at all.

(Of course, I'm going to look very silly if TORn post a report tomorrow about construction starting on Rivendell and/or Hugo Weaving being cast. )

[Primula Baggins]

Maybe they have the option of waiting with Rivendell. With Hobbiton they were building it to remain permanently in place, which takes longer, and they also need a full growing season for the lawns and plantings and gardens and fields to fill in and look established. Rivendell sits much more lightly on its surroundings, and also looks like a fragile, exposed set to me compared to Hobbiton's holes in the ground and stone bridge and inn. They might not want Rivendell standing unused for very long.

I'm agnostic on Hugo Weaving. I thought he did fine but wouldn't be as upset by recasting Elrond as I would have been with Gandalf.

[Kezmoid]

That's a good point, Primula. I didn't think of that.

[Frelga]

First, I do think that Rivendell is likely to stay.

But it doesn't have to.

The problem then becomes: what to put between the Trolls and the Goblins. Both scenes are required, the first because they were referred to in LOTR and the second because it sets up both Gollum and the Battle of Five Armies.

There was no break from leaving Bag End to leaving Bree in FOTR movie. Granted, it served to heighten the menace of the Black Riders.

The first stage of Bilbo's journey, as described in the book, is quite uneventful. It rains, dwarfs grumble. A pony falls in the river and is rescued. It serves to help Bilbo transition from a sedate gentlehobbit to a seasoned adventurer, but no action actually transpires until the Trolls. We really won't need a nice, uneventful break of Rivendell.

Besides, what of the tra-la-la-lally? I am quite fond of it myself - it shows Elves as full of joy, reveling in their surroundings whatever they are. But PJ's Elves are so grim and sour. Had TH been filmed first, LOTR could then explain how the growing shadow over the world had damped the merriment of Rivendell (which we never actually see on screen). As it is, we are faced with grim, sour Elves again.

[axordil]

The more I think about it, the more I think Bree is actually R & R. It's not perfect, but there's some comic relief with Pippin and the pints. Doesn't last long, but the only action preceding it is the chase to the ferry, which wasn't as long or imposing as Amon Hen or the Flight to the Ford (in the film).

So yeah, they need something between the Trolls and the Goblins.